Interim care order - what should I so?

Mossie20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 am

Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Mossie20 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:55 pm

Hi, I really need some advice

I have a beautiful little boy who has just turned one

He is currently staying with my sister and has been since the end of March under an Interim Care Order.

Social services got involved when he was 2 months old due to problems with his weight gain being very inconsistent. An assessment was completed and it was left on a child in need as they were happy to leave it as it was and handed us over to a new social worker. The following week court proceedings were started and a child protection completely skipped over.

When he was born, he was premature, possibly earlier than we thought with a low birth weight, we stayed on maternity for 18 days due to feeding difficulties, very bad jaundice, suspected sepsis and excessive vomiting. He was sent home from maternity having already dropped on to the 2nd centile, still vomiting with no answer and neonatal doctors saying he did not gain what they’d expect.

I expressed my concerns about all of this when he first saw a Heath visitor the following week, I was told not to worry she admitted at a discharge meeting 2 months later she didn’t know what to do.

I ignored this advice and took him to A&E where he was again dismissed as looking fine and sent for a blood test 2 days later which came back with his bilirubin levels high, and he was called to the children’s assessment unit where they had gone up even further though I wasn’t told at the time.

He was finally given Gaviscon for the vomiting and I was told babies can have reflux from birth but sent home without any treatment for his jaundice, he was booked for a review 4 days later. In between he was very difficult to feed due to the jaundice and he was never hungry anyway. The Gaviscon had not helped and only made him constipated, something which had never been a problem before. I rang 111 and he was prescribed lactulose by an out of hours doctor.

At the review his bloods were checked, and they had come down for his liver, but his thyroid was raised. Something which has never been considered. However, he had only put 12g, so he was admitted. It has been made out he had lost weight despite the weights being in his red book. Also that I never raised concerns about his weight.

They started giving him bottle top ups. We tried cup feeding instead of bottle at times as he was breast fed but it wasn’t very successful. We saw a breastfeeding specialist who did help but he was very fussy. The Gaviscon was stopped, and he was given a suppository, prescribed omeprazole, and lactulose again. He lost 60g overnight at one point while admitted. He was discharged looking worse than when he was admitted.

He had a blood test the following week to check his jaundice level and saw his normal health visitor who said he looked ok. But still he wasn’t feeding very well and still vomiting. The day after seeing the health visitor he looked terrible and was vomiting huge amounts, so I took him to A&E again where he was admitted. The first 3 days admitted he only gained 10g a day. They stopped the lactulose despite him still not being back to regular. He ended up constipated again and having another suppository and lactulose started again, which was never as effective following this.

We saw the breastfeeding specialist again who really was wonderful and supportive. He was discharged after 5 days again looking worse than when admitted, it was the day before Christmas Eve otherwise I believe they would have kept him in. He was weighed at home on Christmas Eve and had put on 40g overnight which was brilliant. He fed well over Christmas but remained constipated and became extremely uncomfortable and unsettled on Boxing Day, he never normally cried except when changing his nappy. Every time he was fed he would become uncomfortable within half an hour and then by the time he was just about settled it was time to feed again as he couldn’t be demand fed. I took him to the urgent care centre the following day as he couldn’t wait till his outpatient appointment as it wasn’t for another 2 days. They only upped his lactulose which did nothing. The next day and a half he just slept and would hardly feed at all. The day of his appointment he also had his 8 week check and first immunizations. Here the doctor was happy with him he was weighed at my request as I needed them to work out how much calpol he could have for his immunizations as he was below the minimum weight required. Based on this I knew he would be admitted as although he’d gained since discharge he’d lost since Christmas Eve and his appointment letter said if he was static or lost weight he’d be admitted.

I knew this wasn’t going to make me look good, but I stood in the snow for an hour to make sure he went as his health was the most important thing. The doctor looking at him was happy but based on his weight had to admit him. He was in for 4 weeks where he had a lot of tests including an mri as he his sight was a concern as he still wasn’t smiling and wouldn’t follow anything. This has since been confirmed as delayed vision due to being early his sight is fine now. He had a liver scan which showed debris from a possible infection. His lever tests were high, and they couldn’t say whether his weight was affecting his liver or his liver his weight. They have since tried to say it was inadequate feeding.
One consultant who herself had had two refluxing babies spent quite a bit of time with him did not think it was anything I was or wasn’t doing and was happy for me to continue trying to breastfeed. She also prescribed him carobel and domperidone which made a difference to his vomiting. I again saw the breastfeeding specialist who was called by the nurses a miracle worker, but she was baffled by him.

Unfortunately, she was not his named consultant, she was the one who got social services involved had it been any other doctor this situation would not be happening. She is a gastro specialist and runs a constipation clinic, and it took the nurses and other doctors over a week to get her to come and see him over his constipation, she left him constipated for 4 Months as she wouldn’t do an x ray to see if there was a blockage. I was asked by the nurses and breastfeeding specialist if he had had an x ray as it something wasn’t right. In 4 weeks, he did 2 poos without suppositories and they were with lactulose. She has also made out the constipation was due to inadequate feeding yet while admitted for 4 weeks he remained constipated and pooed with a suppository he just couldn’t get it out alone. She had wanted to discharge him earlier than he was but I wasn’t at all comfortable with this. I said I was worried if his weight gain got worse it wouldn’t look good and despite the improvement in his vomiting it still occurred and there wasn’t a pattern to it. He was also still constipated. He was having a high every milk alongside breastfeeding and his weight still wasn’t catching up and though had improved a bit was still inconsistent and was the same as two days before. When discharged his first feed he vomited all back exactly what I was afraid of I have no idea why.

Over the next few weeks his weight was ok, but his constipation was still a problem. He was prescribed suppositories by the consultant to use at home however at the appointment she told me and the dietician every 5 days but told the hospital at home 7.
When I spoke to the dietician after 5 days she told me to ask for them to come and give a suppository but when I did they said they were told 7 so he was left a week. When he was finally given one it did not work for 24 hours they should work within 1. I took him to the assessment unit the following day as I was not happy with this, where again they just upped his lactulose despite me saying it didn’t work.

He had also lost 70g overnight, but they weren’t bothered as he looked ok and wasn’t as young now, so it was as concerning. He was barely 3 months. This continued for weeks having to give suppositories after 7 days even though in hospital they would only leave him 3-4 at the most.

His reflux was very unpredictable he could go weeks and his vomiting being ok and then have a few days where it was every feed

In the weeks where the child in need assessment was completed we’re not good his constipation was becoming very uncomfortable for him, and his vomiting was worse. Finally, the gp prescribed him Movicol which is what finally cleared what was blocking him, the dietician has said this. But his weight wasn’t good over those couple of weeks.
He also saw the dietician where a new plan was decided by her, there had been many all of which I followed, this one I chose to not change to just for a few days as despite the vomiting he was taking more of the high energy and breastfeeding much better and I wanted to see if it could work especially with the constipation improving as that could make feeding harder as he would feel full. But it didn’t work, and he didn’t put much on over the last weekend. The new social worker came and saw us with his service manager, and we had a long talk and I agreed to do the new plan.

However, 2 days later the social worker turned up and said he was being admitted and court proceedings were being started. I have found out since that, two days before the dietician had said in a meeting he needed to be 5kg by the following week or he would need to be admitted he was the 5kg upon admission two days after, yet proceedings continued. While there I spoke to doctors who had seen him before who said he didn’t look ill just small as the social workers had said he looked grey will bulging eyes, I have photos of the day this was said which show he wasn’t.

He was small baby, he was described a scrap as a newborn there was no fat on him and tiny baby clothes were too big, but the social workers and consultant couldn’t appreciate how much he had grown and were just treating him as though he were an average weight full term baby without any problems. No one has ever bothered to look at photos of him from birth to see the difference. There has been no one involved continually since birth. His health visitor didn’t see him till he was nearly a month old.

Since going to my sisters there has been a paediatric expert witness who found it very difficult to agree that his weight was due to inadequate feeding, that I had raised concerns and acted appropriately. That he was always clean and well presents and home conditions were good, we own our property, a large bed in a quiet street in a very nice area. He has a beautiful nursey which has been seen multiple times by social workers. He had everything he needed. There are no financial difficulties.

He also acknowledged his prematurity and low birth weight and said it is known that babies born with these are known to having feeding and weight gain issues. This was never considered by his consultant.

That reflux tends to improve at around 5 months (he was just under this when taken) and that he shouldn’t have been taken and 5 months is too young to diagnose failure to thrive.
There had also been a psychological assessment of both myself and my husband.
I was diagnosed with ptsd following childbirth, extreme anxiety, and an autism assessment and PAMs were recommended.

My husband scored extremely highly for impression management and lying and very low for emotions. She recommended he had therapy and extra parenting assessments taking into account his scores for lying.

My GP requested an assessment for autism which was refused by the autism team with the full psychological assessment.

I have given the psychologist a statement about what I disagreed with, which was that while I could understand her reasons for the potential autism them reasons she have were inaccurate.

Firstly, was eye contact, I do not make good eye contact with people I don’t know but it had not always been this way it is from years of bullying about my squint/glasses and a operation that didn’t work as planned, which I explained to her in the assessment and statement. There are no problem with my family and friends and certainly not my son.

Secondly evidence was used from my husband who she herself said was dishonest and I can also disprove things he said about me which insinuated I have issues with change and routine.

Despite this and the refusal from the autism team as they don’t feel there is enough evidence to even need an assessment, social services are applying for another extension for a private assessment and then a PAMs even if the autism one is negative.
They have already been given extensions.

The deadline for an IRO was originally September then November then March now I don’t know, there is another direction hearing on the 3rd of December.

My mum, family, including a special needs teacher who works with autistic children and has for about 20 years, friends, contact supervisor and even the social workers service manager do not think I am autistic.

My parenting isn’t a concern and the psychologist said even if I was autistic it wouldn’t stop me parenting.

Even when concerns have been raised about mental health they specifically said my parenting was not a concern.

They have constantly tried to make out I was suffering from post-natal depression
While I had anxiety problems it was never depression, there was just a lot going on from birth which was extremely fast only just over an hour, then jaundice (he needed treatment three times in under two weeks and it didn’t clear for months) vomiting suspected sepsis twice, x ray on his stomach, feeding difficulties, eye infection, bleeding belly button, choking, being told they think he was earlier than thought, his weight gain, I had also had a water infection which took days for a midwife to do anything about, this was just on maternity

Since being home and various admissions there’s been the prolonged jaundice, reflux, slight colic, I was told he may not be able to see anything, being told he might have a genetic liver problem, his hands and arms kept going purple (diagnosed as vasomotor instability) constipation, there’s been an mri, x rays on his chest, ultrasounds, and what is concern and worry is deemed depression.

I have struggled with anxiety, and it got to the point where I could not have his dad around him, this was partly irrational anxiety and partly due to fear he had already shouted at him when he was weeks old for crying for about 30 seconds and would never admit he was frustrated and wont admit he has a short temper. He didn’t like crying and was defensive if anyone tried to show him anything as he had no experience at all, but then tells people he never did anything, and no one would show him.

Despite me basically doing everything alone he was looked after.

I have looked after babies and children since I was 14 with no problem including the sons of someone who herself is a psychologist who never raised any concerns to me or my mum.

I had no trouble at school, I never caused trouble or needed special help, was in top sets forms went to university, am a scout leader. I am simply a quiet person with those I do not know well. Even the previous assessing social worker had stated I opened up more once I got to know her and would initiate conversation.
I really don’t know what I can do.

My solicitor just tells me to agree to everything but that has got me nowhere and no nearer to a solution

I have done as asked regarding the autism assessment and I can’t see why a professional NHS autism teams opinion is not good enough.

Or why a PAMs is wanted regardless despite already completely a parenting assessment without issue.

They also say they need to do all the recommendations to caver all bases yet are ignoring the recommendations about my husband saying they don’t feel he needs any more assessments.

It is also recommended they speak to my mother regarding him to clarify things which hasn’t been done.

Contacts have always gone well with no concerns the contact people always seem surprised by the whole situation.

Even the service manager said they shouldn’t be involved we aren’t the normal family they are used to and said I’m a good mum and that 99% of psychological assessments come back that the child shouldn’t be returned.

It’s like they don’t even know what they’re worried will happen if he came home.

Is there any way a interim care order can be changed before a resolution hearing? Or appealed?

Is there a chance the judge may refuse the extension?

Should I refuse the private assessment on the grounds I’ve already had an NHS one refused? I don’t want to appear as though I won’t work with them, I have done everything asked so far.

Any help will be appreciated, thank you
Last edited by Mossie20 on Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mossie20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 am

Re: Interim care order

Post by Mossie20 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:06 pm

Please does anyone have any advice on what I should do?

The directions hearing is on Friday and my solicitor isn’t answering me

Thanks

Mossie20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 am

Re: Interim care order

Post by Mossie20 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:42 pm

The C2 application says that my GP declined to progress a referral, which is a complete lie. They did the referral, and it was refused by the autism team. The social worker knows a referral was made and refused, he has seen the refusal letter and the reason why and told me not to bother trying again when I asked him about a form for it, as it would probably be refused again. Has he told me this because if it was refused again they wouldn’t get the extension?

Will the judge know any of this? Will they have seen all other reports/statements such as the paediatric expert assessment?

Should I refuse the assessment and hope the judge agrees?

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Suzie, FRG Adviser
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:57 pm

Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Suzie, FRG Adviser » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:28 pm

Dear Mossie20

Thank you for your detailed posts and welcome to the Board.

I am sorry to read that your son, after his birth, had some complicated health issues and what you seem to say in your posts is that he was removed from your care because of these issues and some concerns about your mental wellbeing?

You ask whether you should agree to assessments and from what you write, you have cooperated with all the professionals well so far; it may be a good idea for you to continue to do so.

By now you may have been able to consult with your solicitor for their advice as well as having had a hearing which is scheduled for today. Your solicitor will be able to advise you about the ‘things’ (reports, statements etc) to challenge and the things not to challenge at this point as well as being able to ask the court to grant an extension of the proceedings if that is appropriate.

You ask whether a judge will see all of the relevant reports or statements, here is some general information about what should be in a court bundle/court papers.

If you have not done so already, please to have a read of a section on our website that covers care (and related) proceedings.

Best wishes

Suzie

Mossie20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 am

Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Mossie20 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:45 pm

Hi, thankfully the application has been refused nor do I have to have an autism assessment. I've still got to have a PAMs as it was granted by the court on the last hearing. The judge was not at all impressed with the local authority over all the delays. He wouldn't even give them an extra week to file something. He didn't see the need for an autism assessment. He ordered that my mum be spoken too as recommended to feed into my husbands parenting assessment. Also that suitability assessments be checked or done of my sister, her partner and my mum so that they can supervise contact, so it does not have to be at a centre.

The IRH will not be delayed and will still be in march.

Unfortunately solicitor has said that appealing the requirement of a PAMs wouldn't do much good time wise that it would still take weeks.

Hopefully the judge at the IRH will agree with the expert witness that he should not have been taken. The main problems now are the PAMs and the situation between me and my husband which isn't great and they are using that as a reason to stop him coming home. I can't see why it should be. There are problems regarding his honesty and what the solicitor described as emotional abuse. but he has never hit me, we never argued before this happened.

The psychologist even said I was acting in my sons best interest when keeping him away from my husband. So it is not all irrational. But taking him has only made things worse. I myself came from a "broken home" we left my dad when i was 9 and have not seen him since. that situation was far worse i was born into a bad relationship and while I would like both parents i was fine i was ignorant of most things that went on as a lot of children are. they don't pick up on everything. my mum managed to shield me from the bulk of it and I didn't know most things till we left. my mum was basically always a single mum he never did anything. Our relationship is not like that. its far from perfect but I don't know how to prove my son would be perfectly safe at home and not in anyway a risk of either emotional or physical harm.

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Suzie, FRG Adviser
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Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Suzie, FRG Adviser » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:50 pm

Dear Mossie20

Thank you for updating us on how the court hearing went today.

For more information about the PAMS Assessment that is planned do ask the local authority who will be undertaking it.

Regarding your relationship with your husband, perhaps some information and descriptions of emotional abuse may be helpful to you, do have a look here from (Relate) and here from (Women’s Aid).

Best wishes

Suzie

Mossie20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 am

Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Mossie20 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:05 pm

Hi, the solicitor who represented me at this hearing also mentioned relate
out of interest how would I appeal having a PAMs?
It was granted by the court in a hearing in September, but this was based on me possibly been autistic.
No one agrees that I’m autistic, it was only the psychologist and she even emphasized I have had no official diagnosis and only she said I showed autistic traits and recommended an assessment she never actually said it was necessary to have my son. All the traits she specified were explained. Some were lies my husband told making out I had problems with change and routine which I could easily disprove if anything he would be more likely to being diagnosed as autistic, I have no idea what he hoped to gain this. He has tried to turn this into a competition when we should be a team. The psychologist said herself whatever he says should be taken with caution due to his high scores for lying and impression management. Yet she still used what he said as fact about me.
I haven’t got to have an autism assessment now as the judge would not allow a delay until March for it to be done, it had already been refused by the NHS autism team as they didn’t feel I even needed an assessment, and he also didn’t see the relevance of it, whether or not I am autistic that it would only be a personal benefit and had no relevance to the situation. Even the psychologist said it wouldn’t stop me parenting and even if I was I have lived a perfectly normal life and was mostly recommending an assessment for my benefit, he also seemed to think it important that I didn’t think I was autistic.
I had a normal parenting assessment that was done in July, but I have no idea if it was ever finished as it was waiting for the psychological assessment. I certainly don’t know what it says. I don’t think the judge was aware of it as he never asked what the outcome was. I didn't have any problems doing it, no issues with understanding.
Unfortunately, the judge couldn’t stop the PAMs apparently as it was granted by the court already according to the solicitor. Is this correct? I’m sure the autism assessment was granted but he said no to that.
I have so much experience in childcare, both babysitting for family and friends and being a Cub scout leader until lockdown. I was always looking after children with no problems.
The IRH is in March would it be worth trying to appeal it to possibly get the hearing sooner? solicitor doesn’t seem to think it would make much difference time wise.
She said it could get a hearing next week but then something else could take another 6 weeks. I really don’t know what the procedure is. My normal solicitor isn’t usually much use advice wise and will just say go along with everything to show willing.
The whole situation has been a complete farce, with social workers doing what they like and making excuses for not doing things that are court ordered, they’ve lied to the courts in the threshold and have paid no attention to the expert witness saying he shouldn’t have been removed.

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Suzie, FRG Adviser
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Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Suzie, FRG Adviser » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:14 pm

Dear Mossie20,

Thankyou for your further post.

You would like to know whether you could appeal the court directed PAMS assessment and you would also like to know if the IRH would be moved to a sooner date if the appeal is successful. You also say that you don’t know whether the parenting assessment that was done in the summer was ever completed and what the conclusions of that assessment were.

I would suggest firstly that you speak with your solicitor to request a written copy of the parenting assessment from children’s services as soon as possible. If they say that this was not completed (and has been abandoned) then you should ask for a reason for this in writing and for them to clarify in writing whether or not they intend to use this assessment in court. If the assessment was completed and is positive then you may be in a stronger position to appeal the court directed PAMS assessment. You would be best placed to discuss this with your solicitor – I am unable to advise you further as to whether you would be likely to successfully appeal the PAMS assessment. In regards to whether the IRH would be moved to a sooner date, again, your solicitor would be best placed to advise you regarding this. I am unable to hypothesise about whether this would be likely or not.

Please do post again if you would like any further advice. Or you can call our helpline on 0808 801 0366 (Monday to Friday, 9:30am – 3pm) to speak with an adviser.

Best wishes,
Suzie

Mossie20
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:32 am

Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Mossie20 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:07 pm

Thank you for your advice, I have tried emailing and calling solicitor for various things, I’m getting no response. I aren't getting anything back to say she's on leave.

All I know is that after completing it in July they were waiting for the psychological assessment so that could be included.

The psychologist recommended a PAMs based on me possibly being autistic.
As a PAMs was recommended is it likely they would have still completed it? or will it have been seen as pointless finishing it?

Also, a paediatric expert witness assessment disagreed with the reports given by the consultant and dieticians. It also proved social services had lied about me not raising concerns as records show I did, and the expert said I acted appropriately.
This was completed in august, and no one has taken any notice of it, it has not been mentioned. I’ve been told by contact supervisor to push it as she can’t understand why he was taken.

What was the point of this expert assessment if it isn’t used? Or are they only used if they agree with the original opinion. Why when they disagree, (he provided evidence and reasons, took all the information and medical records into account unlike the original consultant) does the case continue and they be ignored?

The assessing social worker was happy to leave it on a child in need plan, this was just over a week before they started court proceedings, skipping a child protection, which was reported in a meeting as an option. When I have explained what happened to people, everyone is always surprised how quickly things escalated even the social worker had said it all happened fast.

Do you know the procedure for an appeal?

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Suzie, FRG Adviser
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:57 pm

Re: Interim care order - what should I so?

Post by Suzie, FRG Adviser » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:26 pm

Dear Mossie20

Thank you for your further post. I am very sorry that you are finding it hard to get a response to your queries from your solicitor. I can understand that this must be quite frustrating for you.

Unfortunately, your solicitor is the best person to answer your queries as they will be familiar with all the directions ordered by the court including the different assessments and will be able to advise and update you on what is happening.

Please see my previous post on Tuesday, 7 December, where I provided some advice in relation to your query about appealing the PAMS.

Have you seen these tips on working with your solicitor which might help a little; they provide practical advice on how to prepare for meetings with your solicitor and how to have the best working relationship you can with them (see pages 5 and 6).

I hope this is useful.

Best wishes

Suzie

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