Removed from family home by Police & Children Services

[dvsurvivor]

Dear heartbroken father,
I find what you have gone through totally shocking and heart renching.
Its awful that you have been given v terrible choice of going guilty or not guilty with not much hope at all. Do you have a solicitor that specialised in dealing with childrens services as well as criminal law? I'm sorry to say but he does not sound very good at all if he is not prepared to contact potential witnesses to defend your case. You are entitled to a half hour free legal advice from another solicitor. Can your step son not speak up himself to someone in authority who will listen to him?

[heartbrokenfather]

dvsurvivor: Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

I have not had to hunt for solicitors in the past, but I chose the current firm as they had the criminal and family/child solicitors in one building.

Unfortunately once again legal aid only gave a very limited budget for the family/child solicitor, and this funding quickly ended and the case was closed with the family/child solicitor. So since then I have been fighting children's services without any representation.

As I have said previously there is now less then 4 weeks unto the start of my trial, and I do not feel that I will be given a fair trial.

I have no intention of pleading guilty to something that I know I have not done.
But I also am fully aware that if I am found guilty by trial that it will be a custodial sentence.

Regarding my stepson, I know that he wants to speak up and give his view point, but once again he is only 14 and is still a child and is scared. I know that all of this is eating away at him. But I am barred from talking to any of the children and or my wife regarding the case. and I have been told by children's services if they think I am talking about the case and or trying influence any of the children that they will stop all contact.

ECHR Article 6: Right to a fair trial, Minimum rights in criminal trials.
the right for an accused to be promptly informed of the accusation against him or her – this must be in a language which he or she understands and the charge must be detailed and adequately precise.
the right to have enough time and facilities to prepare a defence.
the right to legal representation, including the right to either defend oneself in person or through legal assistance chosen by the accused; for legal aid to be provided if a person cannot afford legal representation; and when the interests of justice require it.
the right to examine witnesses against an accused and for an accused to present witnesses for their defence – this right does not prevent vulnerable witnesses from giving evidence in alternative ways, either anonymously or via video-link etc., as long as the entirety of the evidence against the accused is not presented anonymously.
the right for an accused to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he or she cannot understand the language used in court.

What I can not understand is how this case has been able to progress this far purely on hearsay from the children without any physical evidence.

Yet I have brought to the attention of my family solicitor, my criminal solicitor, and my barrister the fact I have been told by friends of the family that my wife has been threatened by the police and children's services that they will remove the children from her care if she does not fully comply with what they ask.

But all I get told is that they can not act on hearsay, and that my children and wife have made statements.

This is from a phone call I received from the local police station in December 2013, this was about a week after I was removed from the family home by the police and children's services.
Here is part of that conversation.

PC -----: she desperately scared she is going to lose her children …
Me: Yeah I know.
PC -----: … social services, social services have told her that if you contact her or if if you're allowed obviously back into the home at the moment while this is all on going they will take her children into police protective custody ....
Me: (inaudible due to over talking).
PC -----: … You don't want that to happen.
Me: Police and social services are threatening my wife she is scared.
PC -----: No no, they're not threatening her your, well there threatening both of you for the welfare of those children, it's not a threat it's an absolute promise, it's an absolute promise. That will happen.

I showed the full conversation to my barrister when I saw him, but he read it and handed it back without saying anything about it.

I really do not know where to go from here.

Thanks for your time.

Best Regards.

[ange301126]

Dear Heartbrokenfather,
I advise you not to plead guilty on any account. Clearly there is something shady going on, in my opinion,; the walls of silence are up! That was made cbvious when your barrister said nowt and passed you the evidence back.
The 'minutes' you quoted from in a previous message tell us how much pressure the CS will be put under if you get off . Probably the only sure way there is of a conviction is if you were frightened into pleading guilty and they all know that. Whatever you do,don't succumb.

I think it was a bad move getting criminal and civil solicitors from the same practice.
It is quite unusual as Suzie remarked in 'mom of eights' case.

I strongly advise you to switch to another firm.Don't worry about money,everyone is entitled to free representation.If you have any friends who may have the knowledge,find out from them the best one in town and go for it. Please note that it is a fairly common ploy for lawyers to overestimate prospective sentences. Take no notice, it is unlikely you will be sent down for a first offence unless it was for murder or grievous bodily harm. Common sense tells me that.Maybe someone will say if I'm right or not.
Is your wife getting any family support yet?

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Dear Heartbrokenfather,

I’d like to respond to couple of issues raised by your and Ange’s posts.

First of all, only you can make the decision as to whether you are going to plead guilty or not guilty based upon the legal advice you receive. It is part of your solicitor’s and barrister’s role to advise you on the likely outcome of the case based on the evidence in your case and drawing on their knowledge and experience. If you choose to act against their advice then they have to prepare you for the possible consequences of doing so.

With all due respect to Ange, whom I’m sure has your best interests at heart; he does not have the same experience and access to the evidence in your case that your legal team do in order to be able to advise you on your plea and prospective sentencing. There are sentencing guidelines that are used by judges when a person is found/pleads guilty and your barrister should be fully familiar with these. There is actually a lot of misinformation in Ange’s post on this occasion, some of which I have just addressed and the rest of which I will correct below.

Regarding this quote:

I think it was a bad move getting criminal and civil solicitors from the same practice.
It is quite unusual as Suzie remarked in 'mom of eights' case.

Ange has misunderstood what I said to mom of eight. What I actually said was that it is unusual to have the same solicitor undertaking both a criminal and family case. It is very common on the other hand to have difference solicitors in different departments (i.e. crime and family) of the same firm working on the differing aspects of the case appropriate to their areas of expertise. In fact it can be very helpful in some cases, for example in terms of easily transferring information etc.

In terms transferring your case to another firm of solicitors, it will not be as easy as Ange is making out. Not everyone is entitled to free representation and there are complex rules about when legal aid can be transferred and which in some circumstances, requires approval of the court. If you wish to take this course of action, I recommend you discuss it with your solicitor.

Best wishes

Suzie

[ange301126]

Dear Heartbrokenfather,
Commonsense doesn't always gel together with theoretically correct advice and only you know the true reality. As did Sally Clark when she suffered from a miscarriage of justice.
I think your solicitors have already demonstrated their incompetence when one of them left you in the lurch without warning and left the firm.Now a barrister commissioned by another has suggested plea bargaining!
I repeat it is common practice for lawyers to overestimate prospective punishments. They then take the credit and look good when a client gets off or gets a suspended sentence.

Never forget the 'essentially parasitical' nature of the legal profession and look out for yourself. You are in a minefield. They are not interested in natural justice as you and I are. It is an adversarial system , there are good lawyers and bad lawyers , the Crown will have a top one who will be going all out to get you convicted. Yours are advising you to plead guilty beforehand and it is also significant that they have advised you not to go to the press.Assuming they have sight of all the evidence and have disclosed it all to you,do you know what you are alleged to have done yet or aren't you allowed to say?

[charmed1]

Dear heartbrokenfather I know what it's like to have to admit to something you haven't done. I didn't do that and I Iost my children into foster care nearly 18 months ago. I argued with the LA barrister in front of the judge that certain things I was being accused of I hadn't done. They tried to set me and my husband against each other. I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't so I have experience of what your wife might be going through as well.

Ok so you admit to something you didn't do in civil court I know that to the judge and the guardian it shows that you know you did wrong and that by accepting that and you won't repeat that behaviour again. I was accused of being in denial when I refused to accept what the LA said had happened. I know now for me anyway accepting my bad parenting, getting treatment for the ptsd and depression I was suffering with and taking it back to court and saying "hey I did wrong in the past but this is me now. Let me show you what I would do now". Our judge wanted my husband and I to show awareness and insight into what led to the removal of our kids. That's what I've spent over a year in therapy delving into. I won't fight the LA in the same way as I did. If it means "accepting" the past as they've painted it I will. Swallow my pride and move forward.

I can't advise too much on criminal court except I thought it was innocent until proven guilty. As we all know though when the LA are involved it's never that simple. Your barrister and solicitor will work together and read all relevant case law. They will know what works and what doesn't so if they do say pleading guilty will show that you've understood what you did was wrong in a twisted way it may work better for you. Just my opinion. Hang in there and stay strong for you and your family. They need you to do that.

[heartbrokenfather]

As said before I have no intention of pleading guilty to something that I know I have not done.

I have emailed my current criminal solicitor stating this, and told them to inform my barrister the same.

In the email I have also pointed out under ECHR Article 6, I have the right to present witnesses for my defence, and if they are not willing and or able to follow my instructions with regards to possible defence witnesses that I would be looking at other legal representation.

Regarding the evidence, I am unable to say for certain if I have been given copies of all the evidence. I do have written transcripts of the children's and my wife's Achieving Best Evidence (ABE) Interviews (Video Interviews), But I have not yet seen the ABE video recordings myself.

As I have previously said I do have a lot of questions and concerns regarding the ABE Interviews, But once again my solicitor and barrister do not share my concerns. And have not really answered my question either way.

I have been reading: Achieving Best Evidence in Criminal Proceedings - Guidance on interviewing victims and witnesses, and guidance on using special measures
This is a 257 page document, and to tell the truth I don't understand it, and nor do I know what I am really looking for within the document.

As you have quite rightly pointed out I have been told not to go public or contact the press both in regards to children's services and in regards to my criminal case.

But the week of my plea hearing at the crown court the local paper give out my full name, age, and the current, town, and road name of where I am staying, stating accused of inflicting cruelty against three children, and to stand trial estimated to last upto six days

But once again I have been told I am not able to disclose details regarding my case.

I really do not understand any of what is going on.

Thanks again for your time.

Best Regards.

[ange301126]

Dear Heartbrokenfather, I imagine you have wracked your brains already but as far as the ABE interviews are concerned, surely there must have been something in the evidence you have seen which gives you a clue as to how you are alleged to have been cruel.

Only three of the children were involved.In what way have you treated them differently to the other two?

[heartbrokenfather]

Now that I have the written transcripts of the children's and my wife's interviews I am fully aware of the alleged allegations.

As said before I have been told I can not disclose details regarding the case. this is really frustrating, as how can I get suitable responses and help if I am not able to give all the facts as needed.

Regarding the two other children. At the time of the interviews the youngest child was only 3, so the police did not question / interview him.
And the eldest child my stepson who was 13 at the time was also not questioned / interviewed, and within the paper work I only see one sentence regarding this: "whilst still at ---------- police station I spoke with ---------- who made no disclosures against his step father"

I would of thought as a matter of course that my stepson would of been questioned / interviewed to try and corroborate what the other children had said in their interviews.

The police have not questioned and or interviewed my stepson, my solicitor has the view that it would be inappropriate to speak with my stepson.

Now with the "made no disclosures against his step father" statement by the police, I am starting to wonder if my stepson has indeed spoken to the police but discredits what the other children have said. and therefore possibly make the case fall apart.

This is sitting very uncomfortably, as there is currently no way to know for sure.

Maybe I am just over thinking things, But I sure would like to know everyone else's views.

Thanks again for your time.

Best Regards.

[ange301126]

Dear Heartbrokenfather, So your solicitor thinks it inappropriate to obtain evidence from witnesses in your favour and inappropriate to interview the 13 year old who might be expected to have first -hand knowledge of events within the household whilst accepting all the evidence from those younger,more impressionable children who have been used to construct ABE videos to be used against you. How encouraging for you?
What about your wife,is he going to interview her?
He seems to have decided that it is a waste of time putting up any defence.If you think about it,these criminal proceedings appear to have all the one-sided elements which regularly pervert the course of justice in civil family proceedings.Evidence for the complainants accepted; none for the respondent considered and solicitors who advise respondents to cooperate with their own downfall!

Why has it taken so long for them to consider collecting evidence for you or did you have to bring it up yourself?

I suggest that when you are advised by your solicitors( although,notably, not instructed by the court) not to discuss details of the case, that they mean details such as names,ages,addresses and so on.I think you are able to tell us anonymously on this forum in what form the alleged cruelty is supposed to have taken place.
Cruelty does not suggest regular , common and garden domestic abuse,physical assault ,sexual molestation or anything like that to me.However, it does seem to be alleged that the abuse was WILFUL. Cruelty suggests starvation, torture or habitual floggings and beatings or forcing them to sleep on the floor in the cellar.Possibly you have been sending them up chimneys or have enslaved them! A jury will have to consider the definition of cruelty seriously if the charges are to stick.Enlighten us please then we can advise you better!

You should study the statute under which these charges have been brought very carefully and examine its relevance ( in this day and age). Sometimes trials can be halted on technicalities although that would be for a judge to decide not us.By the way,when the transcripts and so on arrived,how late were they? Was a court order flouted? If so, you must instruct your solicitors to report it to the Judge during the trial.You are entitled to be given time to consider all these points and your defence fully in the requisite time which was laid down in the order,I would have thought.
Scrupuously correct pre-proceedings disclosure is vital to the administration of justice.The Court building has a sign outside on the wall which sets out in stone(or pre-cast concrete) that it is a centre of justice set up by the Crown and every citizen is entitled to a fair hearing!

Are you allowed to say when the trial starts?