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Re: will it happen again?

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:14 pm
by Suzie, FRG Adviser

First of all to Sandy, I’m glad that you are feeling more positive about things now and that you have support from your partner, his family and the SW. It’s great that you are trying to maintain a positive relationship with her.

To Ange, thanks for all the support you’ve given to Sandy. It’s great for parents to get support from other people who have been in a similar situation rather than just advice from us.

There are a couple of legal points in your posts that I want to clear up though as they are not technically correct.
It is possible the Social Workers will arrange for the baby to be removed from your care at birth although this may not happen if you work with them appropriately and follow all their advice.If they will not work with you because of your past record as often happens ,they may decide to take the baby at birth using a Police Protection Order..Although it is illegal for them to do so, this does not deter them as they thus achieve a fait accompli and they are granted great latitude later in court on the grounds that anything they do is in the interests of 'at risk' children.Possession is half the Law.Try and forestall this by discussing the situation with your ante-natal consultant ( take someone to support you) and point out to him that the baby should not be removed from your care by anyone without a valid court order.Enlist his help well before the birth and ask him to make notes of your maternal capabilities.
There is no such thing as a “police protection order.” The term is “police protection.” I know this is a minor point but using the word “order” makes it seem like something that the court decides, which it is not. The decision to take a child into police protection (PP) is made by the police only. It is also not something that a social worker can decide. The SW can only ask the police if they will exercise their powers. It is then for the police to decide whether they will or won’t.

Also, it is not illegal for CS to ask the police to use PP at birth. What CS should do is plan with you during the pregnancy what will happen and if appropriate begin the legal planning process. It is bad practice for them to jump in at birth without doing anything before hand if they had concerns, but it is not illegal to ask for PP if they think the child is at immediate risk of harm.
As regards parental responsibility,I can only advise you that if father is on the birth certificate ,this does not guarantee he has parental responsibility in the event of care-proceedings. The only thing which will do so is if you get married shotgun before the birth or apply to court as I have described

This is also not correct. Legally, if a child’s birth has been registered on or after 1st December 2003 and the father is named on the birth certificate then he has parental responsibility (PR), irrespective of whether CS has a Care Order. There is no need to apply to the registrar; this does not give you PR. If CS does get a (Interim) Care Order then they also get PR, which they can use to overrule both mum and dad’s PR. That is the only difference.

I hope this clears a few things up.

Best wishes


Re: will it happen again?

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:32 am
by ange301126
suzie,my apologies for any misunderstandings I may have caused. The Law is so confusing. The good news is that the ladie's partner will have parental responsibility if she simply registers the baby immediately at birth and puts his name on the certificate.As far as a protection order is concerned ;let's hope CS do not get the Police involved . However ,if they do it is important they give them all background information old and new not just the past historic background. I do hope everything turns out okay.Ange.

Re: will it happen again?

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:07 pm
by Suzie, FRG Adviser
That's no problem at all Ange. You're right, the law can be confusing and after all, that is what we are here for - to help everyone understand it better!

Thanks again for offering your support to other users.

Re: will it happen again?

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:39 pm
by ange301126
suzie, for your interest ,although this thread is now an old one,our two children were removed from home under the auspices of a Police Protection Order signed and issued by an Inspector without the involvement of a court under section 46 of the Children's Act.Later the same night the Social Workers asked for and were faxed a copy of the Orderunder which they had taken possession of the children.We never received a copy.
I am sure ,by now, you are aware that social work teams often act wrongly and ,as with us,they are quite capable of giving wrong information to Police in order to persuade them to grab children from home or hospital at birth for them. This can be done on the strength of background information held on file which may or may not be true also 'concerns' which may or may not be genuine more or less at the caprice of an individual social worker. After achieving the fait accomplis it is simpler for the Local Authority to go to court (they must do so within 72 hours) and gain an emergency protection order when they can say that Police felt an emergency situation existed.These Police protection orders have been used regularly in the past by social workers to remove babies from their mother's breast at birth.Can you think of an action more inhumane than that?
The only possible reason I can think of why you say there are no Police Protection Orders is if the Law has changed recently.

Re: will it happen again?

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:52 pm
by Suzie, FRG Adviser
Dear Ange,
From what you describe about your own families circumstances, it is possible that the correct procedures may NOT have been followed when they obtained police protection.
They should have given you a copy of the police protection, notified you and any others who have parental responsibility
• What steps the police have taken,
• Why they took those steps
• What they plan to do next
Not only that the social worker should have then gone through the process with you.
You say that the police could have received the wrong information from children’s services. That could happen-and is the main argument against using them. The law is mindful that they do not have the checks and balances of the courts so limit them as follows:
• The police officer (of inspector rank) has to have reasonable cause to believe that a child would otherwise be likely to suffer significant harm,
• It last only up to 72 hours
• Children’s service should only request police protection IF the threat of serious harm is so imminent that they do not have time to go to court or go before a duty magistrates (after court hours) to ask that the court grant an emergency protection order. (This is an order of the court so allows the court to consider the evidence of the social worker)
• Neither police nor children’s services obtain parental responsibility so cannot for example, request a medical examination of a child.

Therefore police protection should never be used routinely. There is a balance between the need to urgently protect a child against the serious harm and parents and childs right to family life.
Best wishes,