Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can they

Worried_mummy
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:37 pm

Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can they

Postby Worried_mummy » Fri May 06, 2016 4:02 pm

Okay please can somebody help. I have a 3 year old son who was placed under an sgo with my dad when he was 8 months old. We was all on the understanding i would take it back to court and have my little boy back with my dads support when the time was right. i had a past addiction problem but was well on the way to recovery but ss was worried there hadnt been enough time to prove i wouldnt go backwards. Anyway things had been going well through the last 3 yeasrs and i built my contact up to 4 days and 4 nights consecutivly every week unsupervised. We was just about to approach solicitors to find the next steps to going to court and getting full parental responsibility again. Dad also thought this was the right thing to do. My dad is very strict and everything is black and white. He most certainly would not agree if there was any concerns. Ss had signed us off a long time ago because of all the progression and no dangers etc. Anyway my now partner found out he had a 4month old daughter when a social worker knocked on the door asking for a dna test. He knew nothing untill she was 4 months old and the sw had already found his daughter a placement with out exploring if her dad, my partner was a suitible placement or his family members. We was in court 2 days after he found out about her where they tried to give somebody we do not know an sgo. He of course said he didnt agree and wanted assesing. We can only asume that the social worker was annoyed at this as he had already done all his work and about to sign off. They have to have it done with in a certain time frame. My partner started having weekly contact with his daughter at a contact center and the sw said he was NOT assesing him on his contact but only on his history. On paper his past doesnt sound great as he has violence for breaking a mans jaw who was about to beat his then gf up many years ago. Anyway he was basicly clutching at straws so we didnt get custody of his beautiful daughter. He had already promised a baby to another couple. Anyway my son not under social services the social worker involved in my partners case said contact with my son had to be supervised too. He has never met my child or my dad who has the sgo. Surely if he has any concerns with my son the correct thing to do is to open a case asses me and my partner for this case with my son and give us a right to a fair trial under the human rights act. No such thing happened and my son has no social worker. He said it was a RECOMENDATION. But wanting to do everything correctly i am now seeing my son 4 hours a week 2 hours a time twice a week. This has caused so many problems with my sons behaviour our routeen my dads routeen and my sons routeen. He is going backeards in his learning etc too. I just want to know if what he has done is legul. He has past the case on to another sw in another town about 2 hours away where my partners daughter has been placed. At court with my partners little girls case he said his contact was 2 hours every 6 weeks from the once a weekhewas origionally getting. This was ato allow the carers to get a bond with his daughter on the understanding contact would be increased. The sw says he was havng contact once a week origionally for assesment purposes even though he said he isnt assesing him on his contact. He scored 9's everytime out of 10 and the only reason he didnt get 10s was because 10s would mean your no longer at the contact center. The supervision workers were confused with the whole situation and so is the new social worker. Her hands are tied as he now has 4 hours every 6 weeks and apparently in the order thats it comtact can not be increased untill she is 18 with out going back to court. But this is not what he told us he said the carers could increase contact to what they see fit. They also think 6 weeks is to long inbetween. And the fact he has basicly stoped contact with my son with out opening a case or asining him a social worker the new social worker has sugested we put a complaint in as there should have been something in the order that contact could increase. And with my son he shouldnt have done what he did at all. Our life has been on the straight and narrow for a long time. My sons order went throught court years ago to change that surely it needs to go through court again. But because some man i cant call him a social worker cos to my son he isnt he is just a random man has said supervised contact only to change that i need to go back to court to get the origional order but that is still technically the order that is in place
I know it sounds very complicated but thats because it is. I want to complain and even go to the papers local mp etc but i would like an idea if i even have a case to take. Has he acted wrongly. He hasnt even said the reasons why we he has done this. He says with the little girl there is risk she could incure further emotional harm. (She did recieve emotional harm and neglect of the mother during pregnancy and was taken at birth) but nothing through me or my partner and has a good record for the more recent years say 4 or 5 no problems. He cant state why she would be at risk of emotional harm and cant put my son in any of the catogarys. We contacted my sons old social worker who was involved when he was placed with my dad through my mental health and even she believes he should be back with me now knowing the full story but cant say or do anything as it was his call. He has veen very clever but im sure he has found loop holes to get his own work done and not get into trouble qith his managers for doing everything wrong. If my partner had been dna tested at the start not when she was 4 months old we would have had a fair trial but he would have been in trouble if we won for wasting so much time and not doing this origionally and promising another family a baby so he had to make sure we lost. He even gave our addres out to be little girls mum who was in prison who started sending us threntening letters when we told him the adress was confidential. We have cought him out with many lies aswell and this is just very brief to give you a rough idea what has happened even though there is much much more he has done wrong aswell. He said my son only needed to be supervised untill the assesment had been done but before that he said wit was just overnights we coulnt have then changed it to supervised then kept changing how long for then said for a year but now apparently its permenent untill i pay to go back to court he has never even met my son or done assesments and he isnt even under social services. Please please someone talk to me and let me know some thoughts pleaseeee. We dont take drugs we dont comit crime i start collage in septemper i am 24 my partner 38 we have a nice clean tidy home we are clean tidy people none of either of our familys have history of drugs or crime either yet they was not even given a chance to be assesed either.... they cant even tell us why we are supposidly unfit to have our children. In my opinion he promised a baby to two people before he bothered to dna test my partner (sw was given his name during pregnancy as we have paperwork saying so) and then he puleld out all the stops to make sure his promise went through including using my son who was nearly home after 3 years of building contact up and used him as a pawn hoping we would react to what he has done or retaliate to the letters from the mum in prison who he leaked our adress to and he hoped he could use our retaliation against us. But we kept our cool done everything asked of us and now found out we cant progress past where we are at with out going back to court. I believe they have worked wrongly and he should be suspended pending investigation a new socail worker to pick the case up asses us with the little girl in terms of contact and possibly open a case with my son if they see fit which they wont so things can go back to how they was and start a scratch... im very confused and frustrated. The new social worker says it should be in the court order that we can progress with contact providing everything goes well etc and what he did with my son sis un heard of and very strange and cant understand why. She just had to be careful with wording to not go against him... please please please help.

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Suzie, FRG Adviser
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:57 pm

Re: Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can th

Postby Suzie, FRG Adviser » Mon May 09, 2016 2:50 pm

Dear worried.mummy

Welcome to the Family Rights Group Parents’ Discussion Forum.

My name is Suzie, online adviser at Family Rights Group.

I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time at the moment due to Children Services’ (new name for social services) involvement with your family.

In your post you have covered different concerns that you have regarding the way in which the social worker has dealt with you and your family, I will endeavour to address the points in my response.

Firstly, it is good to see that you over the last 3 years you have managed to turn things around after the difficulties you experienced when your father was given a special guardianship order for your son. You were enjoying contact with your son to the extent that you were having overnight staying contact on a weekly basis. Your father who is the special guardianship believed that it was the right time for your son to return to your care. You say that Children Services had signed you off, does this mean that there was a supervision order when the order was made to your father? If this is the case, that order would have lasted only for a year unless it was extended by the court.

A further issue of concern to you is the situation regarding your partner and his daughter. Your partner appears to have become involved late in the day in care proceedings in respect of his daughter. It may be that the child’s mother was giving different information about who the father is which is why it was necessary to have a DNA test to prove paternity. Once he was confirmed as the father, then it was his right to ask to be assessed as a possible carer for his daughter. The court would expect parents to be assessed before a decision is made to place a child outside of the birth family.

It appears that your partner had a negative assessment and one of the reason may have been due in part to his violent history. I think the social worker would also have been assessing how your partner interacted with his daughter at contact, so am not sure why he would have been told that his contact was not being assessed.

I am surprised that the social worker decided that your contact with your son should be supervised. As your father has the special guardianship order it is for him to decide about the contact you should have with your son. If the social worker has concerns then he should discuss this with your father. It might be that because of your partner’s history, does this include any domestic violence? Domestic violence would be a concern regarding your son being at risk of harm. This can include both physical and emotional harm, physical harm if he were to become caught up and hurt whether deliberately or not. Further, research shows that a child is likely suffer emotional harm when exposed to domestic abuse in any way.

You are right to say that if the social worker has concerns that there should be an assessment of you and your partner to assess any risk that the social worker believes exist and the level of such risk. Your partner should be risk assessed on the basis of his violent history. I suggest that you ask the social worker who is allocated to your case to do this. The social worker can make recommendations but if there is a court order for your contact he cannot say that you should not have the ordered contact.

It is a shame that this change in contact has had such an adverse impact on your son’s behaviour. Perhaps your father as the special guardian can consider whether contact should be as it was before for the benefit of your son. This change in your son's behaviour should be pointed out to the social worker. What is your father's view about this change in contact?

As your son has no allocated social worker, I am not sure what you mean by him passing case to another social worker. Has the case about your partner’s daughter now finished? Has she been placed with foster carers and what is the long term plan for her? It would be right for your partner to have contact when the assessment is being carried out because that would be the only way his ability to look after his daughter and how he was able to meet her needs. Usually, where a child is moved to new carers, contact with birth parents is reduced to allow the child to settle.

If your partner wishes to have more contact than he is having at the moment, he can apply to the court. His application will depend on whether his daughter is subject to a care order at the moment or if there is a special guardianship order to the carers. As you mention that there is an order for contact it is possible to ask the court to make changes to the order.

Your son is subject to a special guardianship order and if you want him to return to your care then it would be necessary for you to apply to the court. You will need permission from the court to make the application. A copy of our advice sheet relating to special guardianship and birth parents is included for your information.

I do not think going to the papers would be a good idea as cases about children remain confidential to protect the child. If you feel that your case has been mishandled by the social worker, you can make a formal complaint and a copy of our advice sheet is here for your information. You can contact your local MP to get support in dealing with children services about your son. Anything related to your partner’s daughter will be for him to deal with as due to data protection information relating to his case is not available to you.

The disclosure of your address is a breach of data protection on the part of the social worker and you can make a complaint about this to children services. You may also like to contact the Information Commissioner’s Office for more information about this.

As stated above, the best way to deal with the way in which the social worker has dealt with your case is to make a complaint. It is important that in your complaint you keep it to the point and refer to the specific issues rather than writing pages and pages. Please do refer to our advice sheet.

From what you have said about contact with your son, it is not clear why the social worker decided to make the recommendation he did. What were or are his specific concerns about your contact with him. As I have said children services do not have parental responsibility only the special guardian and you (and your son’s father if he is on the birth certificate). It is the special guardian who is entitled to make decisions about your contact. If children services have concerns then they should be speaking to the special guardian about it and supporting him to keep your son safe.
I am sorry that you are confused and frustrated by this whole situation. If you are unhappy with you contact then you can apply to the court for more contact but if your father agrees this should not be necessary. From your post, I can see no reason why your contact should be affected in this way unless the concerns are in respect of your partner and your son having unsupervised contact with him. However, you would be able to supervise and keep your son safe.

I suggest to write to the social worker and send copies to the team manager and the head of children services about your concerns and ask for a written explanation as to why the social worker has taken the action he has.

A copy of our advice sheet relating to duties that children services have when a child is in care which your partner might find helpful. If his daughter is also subject to a special guardianship order then as I have said before, it is the special guardian who can decide on contact if children services are not required to be involved under any order.

Regarding what the social worker has advised you regarding the order having to state that contact will increase if all goes well is not strictly the case. Normally, the order will say further or other contact as agreed between the parties. It really does depend on what the concerns were at the time the order was made.

You may also like to contact Coram Children’s Legal Centre for advice in respect of any application you might make to the court. They provide advice on private law matters which your application would be. Their telephone number is 0300 030 5480 and the website is here.

Should you wish to speak to an adviser please telephone our advice line on 0808 801 0366. The advice line is open Monday to Friday from 9.30 a.m. to 3.00 p.m.

I hope you will find this helpful.

Best wishes

Suzie

Worried_mummy
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:37 pm

Re: Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can th

Postby Worried_mummy » Wed May 11, 2016 1:58 pm

Hi suzie thank you ever so much for your reply. My dad said he wants my sons contact to return to normal and my mother was the more suitible special gaurdian would have been my mother who was a child minder for over 15 years and leaders at brownies guides amature dramatic groups parent voulenteer on school trips etc. But due to work commitments and living over 140 miles away it just wasnt convinient. But she to is very frustrated as she has watched my grow into who i am today and knowing all of my situations inside out knowing full well there is no risk and actually very very good with children. Its just a shame my mental health and attemptid suicide ever happened at all. But it has certainly made me much stronger and a better woman from it. But i cant even take my son to visit her so her contact is only about twice a year when she is able to visit us. She knows lots of places she would love to take my son while he is small but i am not allowed to take him :(

My dad would like contact to return to normal but as he is a man who is very black and white and will not take a risk when it comes to my son and the law (which i agree with, we tried to work with the social worker at all times) he will not put contact back with out having something in writting so we cant get in any trouble. But the social worker takes my dads lack of knoladge about the system as an oppertunity to say what he wants and dad takes it as gospal. The social worker has not stated any valid reasons to the change. To start with he said we just cant have overnight contact during the assesment process, i then said what is the difference to my son being laid in bed sleeping to us having him all day on our own? I didnt understand the reason. I got no answer. At 7pm that evening social worker phoned my dad out of hours (which raised alarm bells as though something serious had been descovered) anyway he told him ALL contact to be supervised. I can only assume from my question and no answer this is why he changed it. He said it would just be during the assesment process just incase there was anything wrong with it. I understood this and we all co operated. After the assesment process with no alarming concers the social worker said it would go back to normal regarding all was ok. All was okay and we never got the go ahead to return to normal. After many failed atyempts to get hold of sw (weeks) sw said he would send the parts of assesment regarding my son to my father and he would be allowed to make his own decision. No paperwork was ever recieved so after trying to find out what was going on during the following months SW said he was having a meeting with his manager to discuss there recomendation for my son contact the next day. We waited called waited called etc etc. Eventually he sent a letter saying they recomend contact to be supervised for 1 year. (I missed a part sorry - at one point he changed his mind and said i did not need to be supervised just my partner, he said that was how it was since the start of the recomendation. But we all know he said both of us. Dad was not prepared to take my word on the fact he said it was just my partner so much further down the line. Another reason was he did not want to drop my son off to me while my parter visited family to keep out of the way incase he returned and we was going against recomendation) what i dont understand is the day before 1 year is up and the day after, surely even at that he would need to asses us in a years time. But no assesment was ever ever done regarding me or my son. To have him supervised for 3 hours 1 day and the very next day he was allowed days of unsupervised over night contact. I hope i am making sense and i am sorry i woffle i would construct the complaint a lot better :lol: sorry.

Dad will return contact once he has in writtimg that he is actually allowed to have the final say. he is scared if he puts it back to normal childrens services would then get back involved and remove my son from his care and be out of the family. Because he didnt follow recomendation. So i understand why he is so causious. It is just frustrating that i know it is his decision and sw should have opened a case if he had concerns and assed us etc and to change anything would possibly need to have been changed at court. Dad has tried to get advise and recieved 2 letters stating that they have refered his concerns to the local center and untill he gets a reply to keep contact suppervised just incase. But they never got in touch.

When i say he passed the case to another social worker i mean my parners daughters case. As she is in another county now he passed it to a new worker. So now her hands are tied in the way that she said if it was her case from the start, baring in mind she knows the whole situation and all the paperwork. She would have stated that contact would be open to progression and also does not understand why he made this reccomendation at all. She said to change it we nedd to go to court but were on the understanding it is just for the year. (Thats whats

I dont think i got a contact order at the time the sgo was made.
I signed some arangememts we sat and made just before entering court we, we said that to start with i could take my son to and from nursery unsupervised for say 3 months depending on if everything continued to progress or any slip ups it could be a shorter time or longer. The next stage was a few hours unsupervised in the town or at my dads home address or my own safe address if i had one. I lived in shared accomidation at the time supported accomidation. The same sort of thing with time frames. And then full days progressing to increased overnight. Although the sgo be untill my son is 18 we did this as a way to minimise the change disturbance of him moving back to my full time care as we all knew that was the aim.

Also i forgot to mention i made an appointment to the police along with my dad to try and stop the whole situation becoming how it has under clairs law to access my partners criminal history. Two men sat down with me while dad had to wait in reseption and told me they had no reasons for any concern due to the circumstances and time frame and no serious convistions or anything like. After they talked to dad and me in the waiting room and basicly told him the same with out the detailes they told me in confidence. One of the police told dad they would tell the social worker too. Dad offered them his telephone number but the officer said nope i think i will visit him at work, which the social worker did not like as it raised questions with his manager. Im not sure what questions i have missed in my reply but i will read your response again and respond if i mised an important part out.

Thank you ever so much for your reply it is very helpful and is posibly the written information my dad will be happy to act upon. Thank you thank you thank you.

Also one last thing when we have tried to contact the social worker who put this in place for reasons extra he just says i am not the social worker for the case any more you need to contact the new one. She is certain tnhe complaint needs to be put in too. But as i said she cant say to much. I imagine asking him who is responsible for an assesment he would say the same thing. Can you please touch upon the human rights part that i read in one of this sites sections, possibly faqs. From not having any assesments or meeting my son or anything not having a fair trial part. I dont want to mention it if that isnt the case and look a fool :lol: thank you xx

Worried_mummy
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:37 pm

Re: Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can th

Postby Worried_mummy » Wed May 11, 2016 2:14 pm

We have paper work saying the mother was in a 2 year relationship with my partner at the time of conception but also had a 1 night stand with another man. They dna tested the other man and then my partner but even after the first mans negative result from the dna they didnt contact my partener for a while afterwards or order a kit for ages taking even longer with the dna test. The social worker said it was to late to asses and wouldnt need to, his solicitor said we would get an inderpendent social worker to do an assesment if they did not asses. Then they all went in court and the judge said sw did not need to do an assesment but sw cane out after hearing an inderpendent social worker would be involved he said they would do an assesment. We would have prefered an inderpendent social worker to carry it out, as it would be unbiased. In his write up he says the court instructed the assesment although we know otherwise. The case was extended to allow time for the assesment and also gave names of family member to be assesed aswell and held a meeting where both our families attended to state where they can help my partner in terms of saftey nets if anything went wrong which it wouldnt and about lifta to contact etc and appoimtments as a reasurance he was going to them all. Basicly just other peoples word that he is doing what he should be aswell. None of the family members names who was given for full time carers actually ever got assesed because a possitive assesment of somebody else had already been carried out. They were promised a baby and then they just needed a name to attach as a father is all we can think of. It seems like the rest was put in place the more possitive assesments were going as an attempt to trip us up presuming we were like the mother. A way to get my partner to retaliate or get so stressed he would act upon that, giving sw a negative set of results for the assesment but we never raised to it. Such as leaking the address to the mother in prison the then send thretening messages and possibly cause trouble at the door when she has been reliesed. But as i say this is just how it looks and i dont want to slander anyone or anything like xx

Worried_mummy
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:37 pm

Re: Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can th

Postby Worried_mummy » Wed May 11, 2016 2:36 pm

And again sorry, yes the case has finished his daughter has been placed with the mums distant relitive who dont have anything to do with her family (although there is lots of my partners close family who live local who could have cared for her and stayed in the family) as the mum has nothing to do with her daughter and refused contact. The new social worker is still involved for support of the carers who now have special gaudianship. They also think 6 weeks is a long time between contact and the long term plan is to stay under the sgo untill 18 my partner having 4 hours contact every 6 weeks untill she is 18. Which he is deffonatly appealing against and asking for more and again wants to apply to the court for full custody in due course once contact is a lot more regular. But before she is to old and will disrubt her by uprouting her. Or at least all getting along and being very very active in her life. We get along with the carers very well. They are prepared for him to have more frequent contact but the new social worker says the court order is writted and worded slightly confusing as states contact can be increased but meaning from 4 hour to 6 hours and to be reassesed at 3 and 6 months (months may be different but similar) we thought if all was good contact could go up at these points but the new social worker says that to be increased it needs to go back to court. Its all very confusing. This is why she suggests complaining and asking if she could do an assesment or somebody and see if he did his job incorectly it is there responsibility to do it again (well kind of) i dont think we will have much loom woth that though. They tend to "fob" us off :( and ramble big explanations to something irrelivent that we have not asked and throw us off the question we orrigionaly asked avoiding answering it :( its our lifes and when you have a child those feelings and bonds dont go away and it feels like he got mardy and played a game of god with our lifes but now the children are suffering to with no concreate reasons or ecplinations as to why :( sorry to be a pain, we just didnt know where to turn x thanx again

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Suzie, FRG Adviser
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:57 pm

Re: Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can th

Postby Suzie, FRG Adviser » Wed May 18, 2016 12:36 pm

Dear Worried Mummy,

Thank you for providing me with further information.

Your contact with your son
I can see the effort you and your dad have made to work with children services while they say they carried out an assessment on your partner’s risk.
This has taken its toll on your family-so your son has been affected by the changes, and your contact has been set back to being supervised.

I suggest the following:
Write (email if you can) to the social worker. Copy in the team manager and the director of children services. Or write directly to the director-if you do not know whether there is an allocated social worker.
In the email you could:
• Say you and your dad would like a meeting to discuss your contact with your son.
• Set out how you were having contact 4 days and nights and how your son was thriving.
• Due to your partners history you cooperated with a risk assessment.
• During the risk assessment you agreed that contact would be again supervised. Explain that you do not know whether the assessment has been completed.

• Ask for copy of any risk assessment to be sent to you within 14 days. (You could also ask your partner whether he has a copy of it).

• Ask for the social worker to put his reasons for suggesting that contact remain supervised for 1 year because your enquiries with the police suggest that your partner is no longer a risk. Also say you do not think it is a proportionate response.

If you have not received a response within 14 days, then I advise that you make a complaint via children services complaints.

However, hopefully you will get a copy of the assessment. You will then be able to see whether or not your partner is still considered to be risky. The report should suggest what courses or support he could do to lower his risk.

If you do not agree with the assessment-You can still challenge this via the children services complaints.

Your partners court case

Has your partner obtained a copy of the court judgment? If not, he should contact his solicitor for this.
The judgment will give the judges reasons why he was ruled out as a long term carer for his daughter. He should also ask his solicitor to explain everything to him and whether there is anything he can do about this decision. You have raised so many valid points so you could check that all these have been addressed by his solicitor.

I noted that the social worker says that to vary the contact order both your partner and the new carers would need to go back to court.
However, that’s not correct. If both agree to the order being varied then there is no need to go back to court.

As the order may be confusing-your partner need to get it clarified by his solicitor.

Your partner could call our advice line to discuss in depth the questions that you raise.

Best wishes,
Suzie

Worried_mummy
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:37 pm

Re: Sgo social services im sure have acted incorrectly please need help he isnt even under social services so how can th

Postby Worried_mummy » Thu May 19, 2016 11:11 am

Thank you very much for your support i will follow your advice exactly and should any more questions arise i will comment back thank you again for all your help.

Since the 1st reply i recieved from you i sent the details to my dad. Aswell as my mum for support. He then had more firm ground to put his thoughts to childrens services to try and get it in writing that its his choice. In the end he was passed between people and the origional worker my partner had , (before his daughters placement changed) his manager etc. She said we will need to get a new social worker, again. From.another office, where dad lives and she will investigate as to what to do now. Im just so scared the new worker will be biesed or friends with the origional worker. I dont know if a case is being opened, or on what basis. As it is dads decision. Also he has changed when the year mark finishes it should be june but now he says its november. Althought there was whitnesses but then he said there was no start or finish dates. I think that says alot anyway. I think he is just over worked. When dad said he will publicise that they are overworked and not doing it properly this is when they said they will introduce a new social worker just for my son. Thanks again. X

P.s example of my dad, at one point i moved in to supported accomidation although i was previously having unsupervised dad put it back to supervised at this point because it was a shared building although my room was alone so no shared areas he wanted to be 100% no one could put danger to my son. So we worjed it back up again. And always worked well together he would never ever leave him in an unsafe situation. He is a very honest loyal man and very traditional in his way of life. Ive engaged with counciling because i feel i have no neaning when im not with my son and being his mummy it is my purpose :( thans again for all your help fingers crossed xx


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