court case - care (no order)

[bells16]

I am worried that ss have said that they want to go to court RE: care, but will be not asking for a care order, just asking for clear direction from the judge. we are on CPP for neglect (children both ASD not attending school). they have given us no paperwork as yet, but have said that they wish to speak to the children with out parents present which worries us as they are very anxious and one has not even met SW yet due to extreme anxiety.

[Har1Her1]

Hello Bells,

I cannot offer you direct advice about the situation, however, I wanted to say, I really do understand what you are going through. I have posted many times on this forum about our difficulties with CSC with respect to our two sons (One ASC and the other pending diagnosis). The boys are currently under their second CPP (Emotional Abuse) and there are damning statements on the Social Worker's Assessment and CPP about parental failure to ensure the boys engage in activities (including going to school) outside the home and, thus, leaving them bereft of social and life skills appropriate for their age.

Having two children with ASC at home and unable to attend school draws your life, as parents, to a halt. I know there may be other reasons why CSC are involved with your family (there are with ours) but the accusation that you (as parents) are the singular causative factor in your children's failure to engage indicates, in my opinion, a fundamental problem in the approach adopted by CSC and related agencies. The failure comprises an acute lack of knowledge about the complexities of autism and the inflexibility of the Local Authority to explore alternatives to school for children with disabilities who refuse to engage; added to this is the assumption of CSC that parental dysfunction lies at the root of all issues pertaining to Safeguarding.

I cannot understand why CSC would go to court for direction. Surely agencies which advise on strategies to help and support families of children with autism would be a more logical first port of call. However, maybe one of the reasons why they are not seeking a court order is that it is terribly difficult to find appropriate placements for children with autism and complex needs. That is one of the reasons why my eldest son has been left in a CAMHS unit for so long.

I really do feel for you. I am sure that someone will offer you more constructive advice. However, perhaps it is some comfort to know that you are not the only parent going through this. There is something terribly wrong with the system.

[bells16]

Hello Har1Her1,

many thanks for your reply. It is so terrible that we have to go through this and as you say there is such a lack of understanding of the complex problems of each individual case that as parents are our primary concern.
Each stage that we have gone through, it has been escalated to the next level without a chance given for improvement. This is obvious to parents that change can not happen overnight, especially with out support from so called professionals. Now there are so many agencies and individuals involved that in itself that is making things worse and now they think a judge can help by giving direction?
Have you used solicitors that were helpful and supportive? if so did you get them from recommendation?

thanks

Bells16

[Har1Her1]

Hello Bells,

Although I am by no means an expert in these matter, you will need a solicitor. I have used a solicitor once when my youngest was interviewed under caution by the police. We had one day to find a solicitor, but it only took two or three phone calls and the solicitor was free of charge. I remained in touch with the solicitor and he provided some very useful liaison and advice. You mention that one of your children has heightened anxiety. This has always been a problem with both my sons. They would literally hide from professionals and, my eldest had severe panic attacks; my youngest, when he was not hiding, behaved aggressively towards professionals who he feared would take him into care. I do not know how old your children are, but my children's placements at school broke down in Year 9 and Year 10.

In our case, child protection issues developed when the two boys were together, unable to attend school and able only to engage in a restricted set of activities. The dynamic between the two boys became impossible to manage and escalated out of control. My husband, who is on the autistic spectrum himself, could not cope and his mental health failed. My posts on this forum log not only the history of intervention from agencies but the break up of our family unit.

I have to be fair to social services, they have tried. However, the approaches they use and suggest for our children, simply do not work. For example, instigating consequences for behaviour is only truly effective if the child/young person understands the effect his behaviour has on others and can identify triggers so he has some ability to control his actions. My youngest has terrific problems with empathy and his behaviour arises from fear. I am only just making some headway with him and he is 15.

I am sorry if my post seems negative. This is only my story and it is not typical of everyone's experience. However, before the court hearing try to get in touch with agencies or organisations that understand autism. The National Autistic Society may offer advice and the PDA society have been very helpful with respect to advice for my youngest son. Furthermore, your children will need advocates who can access and represent their views. If you children are old enough and have mental capacity, their views should be prioritised by CSC and by the court.

If your children cannot attend school because they are too anxious, they should have medical exemption and (as in my youngest son's case) the local authority may be able to provide some home tuition. However, as I stated above, having children with autism at home can lead to problems.

Are your children under CAMHS? If not, go to your GP as a matter of urgency and seek referral. I am rambling a little so I will stop, but, hopefully Suzie will answer your post soon with some objective advice.

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Dear Bells 16

Welcome to the Parents’ Discussion Forum and thank you for your post.

My name is Suzie, online adviser, at Family Rights Group.

I am sorry that you are feeling worried about children services involvement with your family and the possibility of them going to court in respect of your children.

You have not given very much detail about children services’ concerns or how they came to be involved with your family. This, may, of course because you only have limited information yourself. Har1Her1 has offered you some support in response to your post.

However, in your post you said that children services might go to court but will not be asking for a care order. Normally, to make an application for a care or supervision order, children services would do so if the threshold is met. This means that the child or children have suffered harm and at risk of suffering significant harm in the future. It would not simply for the judge to give directions. Children services might want to make sure the case does not drift and in court proceedings there are specific timescales that they have to follow. A court case may be the way to ensure that there is a plan of action to safeguard the children.

I do not know if you have been yet been given a public law outline (PLO) letter. If you have, then you should have had a meeting to which your solicitor can accompany you. I suggest that you engage a solicitor who is accredited to the children panel, which means someone who deals with public law children cases and has the necessary expertise.

A copy of our advice sheet relating to care and other proceedings will give you more information about children services going to court. When a case starts a judge does give directions but it is based on what children services say they need in the children’s best interest and the directions would be to ensure that appropriate support or assessments are done in a timely way.

If you are unclear about the concerns that children services have which might result in them going to court, then you should ask for a meeting with the social worker’s team manager so it can be explained to you. Alternatively, you could write to him or her and ask for a written explanation.

As your children are on child protection plans (CPP), I have included here our advice sheet about child protection procedure for your information.

Regarding the social worker meeting with the children, she is able to do so. However, it might be helpful if you explain your concerns regarding their anxiety and ask for the meeting to take place in a familiar environment, even at home provided parents will be completely out of the way. The social worker has to consider the needs of the children and not put them in a situation that makes them uncomfortable. I do not know the age of the children but you might want to consider asking the social worker to arrange an advocate for the children so the children’s wishes and feelings can be taken into account. You could also ask the social worker to meet with the children first so they get to know him or her before have the one to one meeting.

You may find it helpful to speak to an adviser, please do telephone our free and confidential advice line on 0808 801 0366. The advice line is open from 9.30 a.m. to 3.00 p.m. Monday to Friday.

I hope this is helpful

Best wishes,

Suzie

[321321]

Make sure you bug the children when they go in to speak to the social workers. Plant mobile phones on them set to record and make sure the social workers are not aware of this. You will have everything the social workers are saying to your children. IT IS VITAL THAT YOU DO THIS. Good luck.

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Dear C321,

I have to strongly disagree with your comment about placing recording devices on your children, before they are interviewed by a social worker.

This will place undue pressure on a child, which is very likely to be emotionally abusive. It may also be seen as evidence that a parent is controlling what a child says, so preventing a child from speaking about abuse that they may be suffering.
They may be concerned that a child may be terrified of a parent. Even if this is not the case.

If a social worker found a recording device on a child or a child disclosed the device or seemed very uncomfortable, it is likely to raise significant concerns about whether or not a child is safe. Intervention by children services may be escalated to a child protection level or even court intervention (such as an emergency protection order) to safeguard a child or allow a child to be spoken to without undue pressure.

Although it is understandable that a parent may be worried about a social worker speaking to a child alone, the law says they should do so, if a child is old enough.

However, a social worker should ask for your agreement before they speak to your child (unless there are exceptional circumstances, for example, they are concerned that you might threaten your child or try to make your child stay silent, or your child doesn't want you involved).

You could suggest things that might make your child feel more comfortable. So for example, would s/he prefer seeing the social worker at school with a teacher or other member of staff being present or a family friend being present?

You could also look at your local authority child protection procedures which will be on their website or the local safeguarding board website.

Here is more information about how a social worker decides whether or not your child is safe.

If you have any questions please do post back or speak to a solicitor who specialises in children law or call our advice line on 0808 801 0366.

Best wishes,

Suzie

[bells16]

this is still all hanging over our heads. the social worker keeps saying that it is going back and forth between legal ?!
today i asked about how i get social to fund things for my children and she started going on about how there are no funds for any assessments or anything until it has been put before the court and they split the costs with other agencies or the court. this does not seem like a good reason for all this stress that we are having to go through, is it reasonable? or who should we speak to about it?

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Hi Bells16,

If must be very frustrating as well as frightening to have the threat of court proceedings hanging over your head for so long.
Normally, there would be a short period, to allow you to put in the improvements in the care of your children.

Look at page 7-9 of the advice sheet about care proceedings, I gave you in my last post. This sets out the pre- proceedings process. its what should children services, do before asking the court to give them parental responsibility of your children.

Some things to think about:

• Have you instructed a solicitor yet? If not, you need to do so as soon as you can. You could find a children law solicitor at the Law Society –find a solicitor


• Has there been any pre proceedings letter? The letter would tell you what is expected of you to improve things for your children and it will advise you to take the letter to a solicitor. You will be entitled to free legal advice.

• Has there been a pre proceedings meeting? This is where you and children services and solicitors meet to discuss children services concerns about your children. Your solicitor would raise the issue of the support that you need to help you care for your children.

• Have you been offered a Family group conference ? This is where people who are connected to the children (friends and family) are invited to a meeting (only with your agreement) to see whether they can come up with a plan to support the children living with you. It can also be used to find people who could look after the children, if the court should decide that it is not safe for them to live with you.

I am not sure why the social worker is saying that there is no funds for assessments of your children’s needs. If they were to go to court, they would need to show what support they have offered you, to help you care for your children. When was the last assessment of their needs? Does it need updating?

To find out what support you might be able to access to help you meet your children needs, you could speak to the National Autistic Society (see the link in my last post) or Contact a Family -which gives advice to families with disabled children.

They might be able to tell you about resources in your area or advise you about asking for a further assessment of your children’s needs.

However, I think the priority for you is to speak to your solicitor urgently. You could also ring our advice line for advice on 0808 801 0366.

Please post again if you need further advice.

Best wishes,

Suzie

[bells16]

yesterday we were handed envelopes with our court date next week. we have not had a PLO and it says that we need a response by 4pm on 30th. Solicitor can not see me until Friday, so what do i need to do? we were contacted about a family group conference several weeks ago but have not heard anything since, it seems like it was just so they could put that it had been started on the file for court.