SGO - age & health status

[andrewp]

I hope someone can provide a little advice in relation to how best to proceed for a SGO for our granddaughter to help us be best prepared to go through the legal process and potentially engage with a solicitor.

Our 40 year daughter tragically and suddenly died in January after a short illness. She was a single mother with a 3 year old daughter. The father was not registered on the birth certificate and has not been involved in anyway. There is no statement of guardianship or will. However, she expressed a wish that her younger sister and ourselves bring up her daughter which of course we passionately intend to do.

Since our granddaughter's birth we have been heavily involved, looking after her for at least one day per week as well as frequently at weekends. Our daughters were close and hence our younger daughter has also been heavily involved. Currently our granddaughter is living with us and we have notified the LA. Our younger daughter's personal situation means that it would be challenging for her to take our granddaughter fulltime immediately and we envisage this changing over the next few years as both we get older and our younger daughter sets herself up, including moving into a closer and more suitable property and so on.

Our hope is that the three of us could jointly apply for a SGO - grandmother, grandfather and aunt. If better for only two people to apply then we would proceed with grandmother and aunt.

As grandparents we are both retired (ex schoolteacher and office manager), have financial stability and a supportive wider family. We are concerned around whether our age, 66/67 years old, may be an issue as well as our health. One of us had a minor stroke in their 50s and fully recovered, and the other has had a hip replacement, fused back vertebrae and has early stage Parkinsons disease. We are both however fully mobile and active so this does not impact our ability to bring up our granddaughter at this stage.

We have two married sons with their own children plus other relatives fairly close by who are all supportive and they are all helping.

I would appreciate any advice on how our application may be viewed, both in terms of our age/health and the approach of having grandparents and aunt named as SGO. We recognise that the LA may make contact with the father during the assessment process and appreciate there is some risk although we are reassured by the complete absence of interest since birth, so reassurance that that is a reasonable position would also be appreciated.


Many thanks

[andrewp]

Thanks for the response. I am pleased to hear that health/age should not be an issue and you have confirmed our concerns around an application of 3 people.

We were considering the SGO rather than CAO as it seems more secure/permanent and from what we had read we had understood that the court process was broadly the same, with a social services assessment and report required for both. It sounds like there is a greater difference to the process than we had anticipated. Can you explain a little more as to why the CAO approach would be easier and less intrusive?

While we will probably speak to a solicitor in due course we are quite keen to prepare the application for SGO or CAO ourselves taking advantage of the guidance on this site.

[andrewp]

The contacting of the father is a worry for us. On the one hand leaving it as it is and proceeding with the CAO avoids raising it but the risk remains out there where with the SGO route that risk is effectively faced and closed out.

Lots to think about.

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Hi Andrew,

My condolences on the loss of your daughter.

You have had some good advice already from Irene and I will post a fuller response as soon as I can. However I just wanted to clarify that a Child Arrangements Order (CAO) lasts until a child reaches 18 (unless the Court brings it to an end sooner) and not 21 as Irene suggested.

Whilst awaiting my response, you might want to read our advice sheets on Child Arrangements Orders and Special Guardianship Orders for further information.

Best Wishes

Suzie

[andrewp]

Thanks both.

Suzie, any further guidance you can provide would be appreciated. I think we are leaning towards the CAO based on rereading the documents and on the basis that it is simpler and perhaps more applicable in our circumstances. We would most likely complete the application ourselves.

The assessment criteria across SGO and CAO seem to be broadly the same, and as a consequence we had assumed that the father would be contacted in both cases - is that the case or would the assessment be less extensive with the CAO given our circumstances?

The other main issue then for us I think is around how we can safeguard for the future and importantly include our younger daughter who intends to become the guardian in time, say over the one/two years as we get older and she moves closer and into a suitable property. We are seeing this as a transition as we are all very concerned around providing our granddaughter complete stability in the short term. Therefore including our younger daughter in the order would be ideal if the court would see this as acceptable, noting that at the time of the order she would not be living at our address.

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Dear Andrewp,

Another advantage of a child arrangement order is that you can apply for “interim” child arrangements order, which if the court granted, (which they are very likely to do given your grand daughter is very young) would give you parental responsibility straight away, without you having to wait for the final order. You cannot have an interim special guardianship order.

Special guardianship orders tend to be preferred when children services are or have been substantially involved with the child. There can be a lot of support services attached to them as children in these circumstances may have suffered neglect and abuse and so need extra support as they get older.

If you know where dad is residing then he should be notified of the proceedings whether you apply for a child arrangement order or a special guardianship order.

As children services have not been involved (apart from you letting them know that your granddaughter is living with you) they may have no further dealings with the court case.
If for example, dad was opposing your application, then the court will probably want the welfare report from a court CAFCASS social worker rather than a social worker from your local authority.

If your daughter wants to apply for a child arrangements order as well, you will need to include your daughter on the application form. She will also need to go to the court hearing.

You could also contact Grandparents Plus for advice.

I hope this advice helps. Please also post back if you have further questions.
Best wishes,
Suzie

[Sue 50]

I've got a grandson which has been with us for 9 years under a sgo we've now got our granddaughter under a child arrangement order for 1 year our social worker told us to get the sgo from LA1 social care as that is where we are living but my granddaughter was under LA2 social care and told us we were not entitled to an allowance as LA2 don't do them and when we get the sgo from LA1 we would get an allowance never told us when applying for the sgo in LA1 we would have to pay for it which we really can't afford it our social worker from LA2 told us the best thing was the child arraignment and as she put it was doing it out the back door so would not go through the courts with sgo and they payed for the child arraignment order all we wanted was a safe and secure place for our grandchildren really do not know what to do with getting a allowance for the child arraignment order as LA2 has refused and was told by LA1 that we should of got it

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

Hello

Welcome to the discussion boards and thank you for your post. My name is Suzie and I am an adviser at FRG.

Unfortunately, it’s not unusual for us to hear about families being pushed back and forth between 2 local authorities when a child moves from one to the other.

In your situation, it sounds as though LA2 (where you granddaughter originated) took responsibility for supporting you to get a child arrangement order for your granddaughter. I would, therefore, have expected them to assess you for a child arrangement order allowance if you requested this. It is not reasonable for LA2 to simply say that they ‘don’t do allowances’ as every local authority must have arrangements to make these payments. In reality, however, local authorities can set their own criteria for these, which may be extremely tight, so it is possible that you did not qualify under LA2’s policy.

If you are in real need of this support and feel that you should qualify (on the basis of being on a very low income), I would put something in writing to LA2, setting out your position and requesting that a formal assessment of your eligibility for a child arrangement order allowance is carried out. Insist that, if the local authority are not going to assess you, they put their reasons for this in writing. I would also suggest that you ask for their policy on how these payments are calculated.

It is possible that LA2 will simply try to bat the situation back to LA1 as this is where you and the child now live. In anticipation of this, you might choose to send a copy of your letter to LA1. Emphasise that support is needed in the best interests of the child and that, from your point of view, it is not important which local authority takes responsibility so, if there is any disagreement about this, you expect them to negotiate between them rather than involving you.

Our advice sheet on support for relatives and friends caring for someone else’s child may be helpful for you to read. As your situation is complex, however, you might also find it helpful to call our advice line (0808 801 0366), which is open from 9.30am- 1pm, Monday- Friday.

I hope this helps.

Best Wishes

Suzie
FRG Adviser