I think this has probably been answered by Susan Moore's blog http://www.frg.org.uk/about-us/blogs in march. Our grandchildren are with foster carers with an interim care order. Our daughter, their mother, after suffering from domestic abuse was separated from her partner and was rapidly improving after I think being in a state of nervous breakdown after the trauma of the abuse and the removal of her children.
She was up until recently confident of getting her children back towards the end of the interim care order during the next 2 months. However a few months after the breakup with her partner and the removal of her children she had a psychological report that was returned recently. It is terrible. It does not, we strongly believe, accurately reflect her true self but the state she was in a few months ago when she was in pieces. It expresses doubt that she will change appreciably for several years which given that she has changed dramatically since then in just a few months from someone so anxious she could not keep focussed, took hours to get ready so was often late for appointments, discuss anything slightly difficult without running off; to someone who is now relatively confident and together. Certainly capable of looking after her children.
Social services seem determined to give the children back to her ex partner who is an abusive, angry and manipulative man but can be charming and seems to have charmed the social worker.. Because of the psychological report which hopefully will be challenged by her solicitor we now worry that the children will be given to her ex-partner. We think that would be very damaging for the children and so are wondering if we should now put ourselves forward as party to the proceedings and fight for custody of the children. We don't want to undermine our daughters claim. Would it have any effect on her right to get the children back and can we specifically say the children's welfare would be best served if they are returned to her but if the court is to concerned about her potential health, mistakenly in our view, we would very happily care for the children. It would be a tragedy we think if they are returned to their father who is very likely to bring them up to be as abusive as him.
Can we represent ourselves effectively as I am lucky in now working part time and would have some time to work on it or are we going to be very disadvantaged if we don't get a solicitor which we would have to get a loan to pay for.
If we did get the children our aim would be the eventual return to their mother. Should that also be stated or is that best left unstated for the time being.
Hope you can help thanks
Pete
Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
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David Roth
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:14 am
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
Hi RobB, and welcome to the discussion forum.
Irene has dealt with some of the points you raised, and I would like to consider your final query:
The local authority will expect you to ensure that the children's safety and wellbeing is prioritised over your relationship with mum, for instance you ought to be willing to hang on to the children if you don't think she is well enough to care for them, even if she thinks she could do it. Also, they would want to know that the children's long-term future was secured if mum wasn't able to provide the care they need.
I would always recommend that you have an open dialogue with the local authority about these matters. Firstly, it will show them that you are considering all the options. And secondly, the assessment process will involve you being asked some searching questions abouth these sort of issues, and it may not be easy to draw a veil over your thoughts.
Irene has dealt with some of the points you raised, and I would like to consider your final query:
My advice would be to be clear about what evidence you would expect/accept that mum was capable of looking after the children again. And if she didn't reach the standard of caring that you considered necessary for meeting the children's needs, would you be willing to keep the children long-term/permanently? Will mum be getting support in dealing with her issues, and will this support be able to offer a view on her competence to look after the children? Would you be willing to be guided by this independent view?If we did get the children our aim would be the eventual return to their mother. Should that also be stated or is that best left unstated for the time being.
The local authority will expect you to ensure that the children's safety and wellbeing is prioritised over your relationship with mum, for instance you ought to be willing to hang on to the children if you don't think she is well enough to care for them, even if she thinks she could do it. Also, they would want to know that the children's long-term future was secured if mum wasn't able to provide the care they need.
I would always recommend that you have an open dialogue with the local authority about these matters. Firstly, it will show them that you are considering all the options. And secondly, the assessment process will involve you being asked some searching questions abouth these sort of issues, and it may not be easy to draw a veil over your thoughts.
David Roth
FRG Policy Adviser
FRG Policy Adviser
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
David and Irene, thanks for the replies. We believe that the children's mum is capable of looking after her children now probably very well. There is a chance that we might have it all wrong and it was the children not her ex partner's actions that caused her to have panic attacks and anxiety problems but we think that is very unlikely. That appears to be what social services believe though.
I do find it incredible that social services feel an aggressive and abusive dad can make a good enough parent particularly as the mum desperately wants her children back. There is no doubt over that even if they ignore mine (father's) and mums stepfather's witness statement for being biased there is evidence of frequent bruising to the arms, a black eye to mum, and threats by dad by email and text to get children put in care if dad does not get compliance from mum as well as his very angry outbursts at meetings.
Largely our difficulty is that we disagree strongly with social services actions and views. We can offer to have children permanently but would like very much for mum to have at least supervised contact for most of the time. We would not be prepared to do the same for dad as obviously for reasons above we would feel very uncomfortable in his company and I suspect he would feel similarly in ours.
Incidentally though the Mum's psychological report was very bad and we strongly believe wrong despite her being a psychologist, expert or not, in recommending that the children are not returned to mum for at least, I think, 18 months because of possible drug abuse (something dismissed by a drug abuse counsellor mum saw) she also had a psychiatric report. This was on the whole, very good saying with help and some therapy he believed mum would be a capable mother in the near future.
David, you would recommend that we discuss this with the child protection officer concerned. If so I think we would need, if we can arrange a meeting, an advocate not so much to speak for us but to take minutes or at least witness the meeting as I have no confidence in the social worker being open or honest . Alternatively we could do it by email or letter. Do you have suggestions thanks RobB
I do find it incredible that social services feel an aggressive and abusive dad can make a good enough parent particularly as the mum desperately wants her children back. There is no doubt over that even if they ignore mine (father's) and mums stepfather's witness statement for being biased there is evidence of frequent bruising to the arms, a black eye to mum, and threats by dad by email and text to get children put in care if dad does not get compliance from mum as well as his very angry outbursts at meetings.
Largely our difficulty is that we disagree strongly with social services actions and views. We can offer to have children permanently but would like very much for mum to have at least supervised contact for most of the time. We would not be prepared to do the same for dad as obviously for reasons above we would feel very uncomfortable in his company and I suspect he would feel similarly in ours.
Incidentally though the Mum's psychological report was very bad and we strongly believe wrong despite her being a psychologist, expert or not, in recommending that the children are not returned to mum for at least, I think, 18 months because of possible drug abuse (something dismissed by a drug abuse counsellor mum saw) she also had a psychiatric report. This was on the whole, very good saying with help and some therapy he believed mum would be a capable mother in the near future.
David, you would recommend that we discuss this with the child protection officer concerned. If so I think we would need, if we can arrange a meeting, an advocate not so much to speak for us but to take minutes or at least witness the meeting as I have no confidence in the social worker being open or honest . Alternatively we could do it by email or letter. Do you have suggestions thanks RobB
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David Roth
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:14 am
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
If you really want to test out the psychiatric assessment of your daughter's mental state, you could arrange for her to have another, more up-to-date assessment. If the local authority won't agree (her legal team could request it in court on the grounds that the one already presented is now out of date) you could arrange it yourselves. However, this would mean paying for it, and independent psychiatric assessments for court do not come cheap - they involve quite a lot of the psychiatrist's time, as the reports are usually very full, and there may be a witness cross-examination in court. It would be important to get someone who would be seen as reliable and competent, and not just someone who might give the answers they were being paid to provide.
The court's decisions are going to be based entirely on the evidence that is presented there. If you believe that dad would be a risk to the children, you/your daughter need to make sure that reliable evidence supporting this view is presented to the court. If you believe that your daughter's mental state is better now than at the time of the psychiatric assessment, you need to get evidence that this is so. That would need to come from another expert, not just your personal opinion.
The children's guardian could be a key person in this. The guardian will take an independent view, and they don't always agree with the social worker's recommendations. If the guardian agrees with your perceptions, then he/she may support you in requesting a new assessment - but if the guardian meets your daughter and is concerned, that may not happen.
As Irene has stated, it is important that you present to the court as being realistic in your perceptions of your daughter, and not seeing her through rose-tinted spectacles. It is natural for parents to see the best in their children, but the court's main concern is going to be with the children's welfare. If the court thinks that you would just hand the children back to mum when it would be risky to do this, then the court would be concerned about you getting the children.
The court's decisions are going to be based entirely on the evidence that is presented there. If you believe that dad would be a risk to the children, you/your daughter need to make sure that reliable evidence supporting this view is presented to the court. If you believe that your daughter's mental state is better now than at the time of the psychiatric assessment, you need to get evidence that this is so. That would need to come from another expert, not just your personal opinion.
The children's guardian could be a key person in this. The guardian will take an independent view, and they don't always agree with the social worker's recommendations. If the guardian agrees with your perceptions, then he/she may support you in requesting a new assessment - but if the guardian meets your daughter and is concerned, that may not happen.
As Irene has stated, it is important that you present to the court as being realistic in your perceptions of your daughter, and not seeing her through rose-tinted spectacles. It is natural for parents to see the best in their children, but the court's main concern is going to be with the children's welfare. If the court thinks that you would just hand the children back to mum when it would be risky to do this, then the court would be concerned about you getting the children.
David Roth
FRG Policy Adviser
FRG Policy Adviser
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
Thanks for replies. I will pass the advice about the assessments to my daughter.
What is the most important for me at the moment is whether we should seek to have custody of our grandchildren. I am very willing to do that. So should we first try to arrange a meeting with the children's services social worker, as I said I think we would have to have an advocate or do it by email or letter..
At the same time should we apply to be party to the proceedings and also seek to have custody of the children. We would only seek custody if custody was not going to be awarded to mum. We would be willing if necessary to only allow supervised access to mum which we could do . We could not do the same for dad as said earlier, though we would not oppose it if it was arranged by children's services. There is less than 2 months left for the interim care order to finish so I think we will have to act quickly.
As we will not get legal aid and the costs from a quote from a solicitor we contacted seem likely to be over £1000, I was wondering whether we could do it ourselves. I don't feel we have anything to hide and so don't see why we could not put up a good case ourselves for having custody of the children.
We could loan the money, I think, if it was felt a solicitor is likely to present our case much more persuasively than ourselves. Though I don't see why that would be the case.
The other thing I would like to know is that if we do win custody of the children (3 under the age of 7) are we likely to get a fostering allowance for them. We are currently foster carers and probably would have to give up the care for the children we currently foster.
There is proof of bruising and a black eye to my daughter over a period of around 6 months to a year. This is documented by the police and other services: as well as threatening emails, texts and stalking at the time of their break up by the father. My daughter was not acting rationally at the time though so the claim by children services is that he was acting in that way due to anxiety caused by daughters anxiety and panic attacks.
RobB
What is the most important for me at the moment is whether we should seek to have custody of our grandchildren. I am very willing to do that. So should we first try to arrange a meeting with the children's services social worker, as I said I think we would have to have an advocate or do it by email or letter..
At the same time should we apply to be party to the proceedings and also seek to have custody of the children. We would only seek custody if custody was not going to be awarded to mum. We would be willing if necessary to only allow supervised access to mum which we could do . We could not do the same for dad as said earlier, though we would not oppose it if it was arranged by children's services. There is less than 2 months left for the interim care order to finish so I think we will have to act quickly.
As we will not get legal aid and the costs from a quote from a solicitor we contacted seem likely to be over £1000, I was wondering whether we could do it ourselves. I don't feel we have anything to hide and so don't see why we could not put up a good case ourselves for having custody of the children.
We could loan the money, I think, if it was felt a solicitor is likely to present our case much more persuasively than ourselves. Though I don't see why that would be the case.
The other thing I would like to know is that if we do win custody of the children (3 under the age of 7) are we likely to get a fostering allowance for them. We are currently foster carers and probably would have to give up the care for the children we currently foster.
There is proof of bruising and a black eye to my daughter over a period of around 6 months to a year. This is documented by the police and other services: as well as threatening emails, texts and stalking at the time of their break up by the father. My daughter was not acting rationally at the time though so the claim by children services is that he was acting in that way due to anxiety caused by daughters anxiety and panic attacks.
RobB
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David Roth
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:14 am
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
You are right that you do need to act quickly if you want to put yourselves forward to be carers for your grandchildren. Most courts are operating to a strict six-month timetable for care proceedings at the moment (even although the law requiring this timetable hasn't been passed yet), and people who put themselves forward too late are in danger of missing out. There needs to be enough time for you to go through the thorough assessment that would be needed if the children were to come to you - as foster carers you will have already been through something similar, but this would be a completely new assessment.
I would suggest that you write to the local authority, with a copy to your daughter's solicitors, stating that while you are supporting your daughter in her application to have the children living with her, you would wish to be the fall-back if the court decides that the children can't go to her. You would need to convince the court that, if their decision was that the children could not go to your daughter, then you accepted that decision and you would abide by it. If the court recommended that her contact needed to be restricted or managed, then even if you disagreed you would abide by the court's decision. The court will not place the children with you if they think that (1) the court has decided that mum is a risk to the children; and (2) you do not accept the court's views on this matter.
You would also need to act quickly if you are to be joined as parties to the proceedings. This would give you access to all the court documents, and might give you a clearer idea of how the case is proceeding, as you might not be hearing everything at the moment. There is no reason for you not to represent yourselves in court. This is happening more often now due to legal aid cuts. The clerks and the judges do usually aim to be helpful to people who are acting for themselves. It would be important to be respectful of the process, while not being overawed. Courts are not generally as dramatic as they appear in films & TV dramas, and as long as you don't try to play it like Perry Mason you should be fine. Other posters here have experience of court which they may be able to advise you about. What might be useful could be to use a solicitor for consultations - many will offer the first half hour of their time for free, and you could make further appointments for paid advice. If you do this, be sure to use a solicitor from the Law Society children's panel.
Do you know if the father has had any sort of assessment? If his response to anxiety is the threatening behaviour you have described, then it raises the question of how he would deal with the stresses of raising a baby.
I would suggest that you write to the local authority, with a copy to your daughter's solicitors, stating that while you are supporting your daughter in her application to have the children living with her, you would wish to be the fall-back if the court decides that the children can't go to her. You would need to convince the court that, if their decision was that the children could not go to your daughter, then you accepted that decision and you would abide by it. If the court recommended that her contact needed to be restricted or managed, then even if you disagreed you would abide by the court's decision. The court will not place the children with you if they think that (1) the court has decided that mum is a risk to the children; and (2) you do not accept the court's views on this matter.
You would also need to act quickly if you are to be joined as parties to the proceedings. This would give you access to all the court documents, and might give you a clearer idea of how the case is proceeding, as you might not be hearing everything at the moment. There is no reason for you not to represent yourselves in court. This is happening more often now due to legal aid cuts. The clerks and the judges do usually aim to be helpful to people who are acting for themselves. It would be important to be respectful of the process, while not being overawed. Courts are not generally as dramatic as they appear in films & TV dramas, and as long as you don't try to play it like Perry Mason you should be fine. Other posters here have experience of court which they may be able to advise you about. What might be useful could be to use a solicitor for consultations - many will offer the first half hour of their time for free, and you could make further appointments for paid advice. If you do this, be sure to use a solicitor from the Law Society children's panel.
Do you know if the father has had any sort of assessment? If his response to anxiety is the threatening behaviour you have described, then it raises the question of how he would deal with the stresses of raising a baby.
David Roth
FRG Policy Adviser
FRG Policy Adviser
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
Yes the father has had a psychological report though not a psychiatric one. It does not mention his threatening behaviour. It talks rather abstractly about the effect of domestic violence on children but seems to leave it at at point that there was domestic violence in the family but makes no comment on who was causing it. There is no mention of the texts , letters or emails. The conclusion of his report though not good is probably better than my daughters.
I have just heard today that the final court hearing is set for the beginning of September provisionally the 10th so I am concerned as to whether we will be in time to be allowed to be party to the proceedings. The fathers solicitor has said that she will file his statement by the last week in August. I find it annoying and frustrating because my daughter's solicitor seems to be neglecting to contact us. I asked her a few weeks ago by email similar questions to the ones I have just posted on this board but have had no reply though she told my daughter she was going to respond.
From reading FRG 15 it seems my daughter should have already been asked by her solicitor if there are others who would care for the children if she does not get custody. That does not seem to have happened though I will ask her(my daughter) tomorrow.
I am also confused as to what kind of care to the children we should be offering.I have read through the documents FRG 18 DIY Residence Orders and FRG 15 Care and related proceedings.
I was thinking of applying to foster but wonder if it would be better to apply for a Residence Order, if we have time. I understand that I would need to fill in form c2 and c100 which I could do tomorrow.
Because of the shortage of time I wonder if we would be better to get a loan and employ a solicitor. We have discussed briefly the issue with a local family lawyer who offered to take his payment over a period of time.
I have just heard today that the final court hearing is set for the beginning of September provisionally the 10th so I am concerned as to whether we will be in time to be allowed to be party to the proceedings. The fathers solicitor has said that she will file his statement by the last week in August. I find it annoying and frustrating because my daughter's solicitor seems to be neglecting to contact us. I asked her a few weeks ago by email similar questions to the ones I have just posted on this board but have had no reply though she told my daughter she was going to respond.
From reading FRG 15 it seems my daughter should have already been asked by her solicitor if there are others who would care for the children if she does not get custody. That does not seem to have happened though I will ask her(my daughter) tomorrow.
I am also confused as to what kind of care to the children we should be offering.I have read through the documents FRG 18 DIY Residence Orders and FRG 15 Care and related proceedings.
I was thinking of applying to foster but wonder if it would be better to apply for a Residence Order, if we have time. I understand that I would need to fill in form c2 and c100 which I could do tomorrow.
Because of the shortage of time I wonder if we would be better to get a loan and employ a solicitor. We have discussed briefly the issue with a local family lawyer who offered to take his payment over a period of time.
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
I didn't mention in the previous mail that today 1st of August is a directions hearing. The LA expect to have their position statement in by the 8th of August and, as I said earlier, the fathers and the guardians final statement should be filed by the end of August. I will not be able to get the forms completed in time for today but probably could for tomorrow or monday. I have emailed the childrens services social worker to say we would like to be considered as a potential carers for our grandchildren. I was wrong in believing daughter had not been asked by her solicitor if there are others who would care for the children if she does not get custody. She has and we are recommended. I had forgotten she had asked us several months ago. That has been filed and will presumably be in her final statement to court. As that is the case is it still better for us to apply for a RO ourselves to keep the children safe.
We are now, if it is possible, still considering representing ourselves. Our argument to apply for a residence order, if that is what we go for, is that the father will not presently be a good enough parent. We are very worried about his violence , his anger, and his parenting skills despite him being assessed positively in the recent weeks during the few hours contact he has with the children. He has not been assessed at home with them over a period of days getting them to bed , washed, to school etc.. I see no reason why I cannot give the reasons for that as well as a solicitor if I write them down clearly. We do feel genuinely that it is likely to be harmful to the children to place them with their father at this time because of his domestic abuse, his stalking, the harrassment and his anger. Also in our opinion the children have always seemed more content with their mother.
Additionally the father proposes to move 200 miles to be near his family. I recognise they may or may not support him but they have up to now had little contact with the children and we do not know them at all. It would then clearly be very difficult to maintain contact with them.
Thanks for your help
RobB
We are now, if it is possible, still considering representing ourselves. Our argument to apply for a residence order, if that is what we go for, is that the father will not presently be a good enough parent. We are very worried about his violence , his anger, and his parenting skills despite him being assessed positively in the recent weeks during the few hours contact he has with the children. He has not been assessed at home with them over a period of days getting them to bed , washed, to school etc.. I see no reason why I cannot give the reasons for that as well as a solicitor if I write them down clearly. We do feel genuinely that it is likely to be harmful to the children to place them with their father at this time because of his domestic abuse, his stalking, the harrassment and his anger. Also in our opinion the children have always seemed more content with their mother.
Additionally the father proposes to move 200 miles to be near his family. I recognise they may or may not support him but they have up to now had little contact with the children and we do not know them at all. It would then clearly be very difficult to maintain contact with them.
Thanks for your help
RobB
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David Roth
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:14 am
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
RobB, I would suggest you ask the local authority to start their assessment of you as potential carers for the child right away. It is called parallel planning, and it is a common expectation in these proceedings that the local authority should simultaneously look at more than one option for the child. This means doing the assessment of potential carers as a fall-back position, even although the child might end up going to their parents.
I would also suggest that you consider applying for Special Guardianship Orders rather than Residence Orders. Both of these orders state that the children would live with you, and give you parental responsibility for them, but there are important differences. One of the significant differences is that, although those with parental responsibility already would not lose it, under special guardianship you would be given exclusive right to exercise PR to make decisions about the child. If the court is concerned about the child's safety, they might see SGO as the more secure option.
I would also suggest that you consider applying for Special Guardianship Orders rather than Residence Orders. Both of these orders state that the children would live with you, and give you parental responsibility for them, but there are important differences. One of the significant differences is that, although those with parental responsibility already would not lose it, under special guardianship you would be given exclusive right to exercise PR to make decisions about the child. If the court is concerned about the child's safety, they might see SGO as the more secure option.
David Roth
FRG Policy Adviser
FRG Policy Adviser
Re: Should we put ourselves forward as potential carers
I have skimmed through the advice document DIY SGO and it says
""In all cases, the court cannot make a SGO unless it has received a report from
Children’s Services on whether you would be a suitable special guardian.
Therefore, you cannot make an application for a SGO unless you have given notice to Children’s Services of your intention to apply for a SGO at least three months before you make your application""
As the final hearing is in only just over a month would it not be too late for us to apply for a SGO.
I am concerned about time now.. I did briefly contact my daughter's solicitor before she rushed off to a court appearance and she did say it would be worth us making an application for a RO. She said though it was likely to be trumped by the father's application for custody, which is supported by children's services. I think they are wrong and believe it may be worth while and benefit the children if we do try for a RO or some other care order. I will try and contact daughter's solicitor tomorrow.
Despite being foster carers we do not have a good relationship with the local children's services as we had allegations made against us as being unfit carers in a dispute with them ( to do with my grandchildren and their mother). We were cleared of the charge and continued fostering after a 3 month suspension so though I try to be polite it feels we are being sidelined and the atmosphere is chilly. There is also being investigated a complaint we made against them which is not due to be concluded until the end of august Our complaint was made before the allegations were made against us so should not be viewed as tit for tat. It was basically about not providing a safe house or refuge for my daughter, not having a family conference and taking the children into care when most other professionals believed the children were safe with their mother.
Now even contact with our grandchildren is difficult. So I think the children services will oppose our application.
""In all cases, the court cannot make a SGO unless it has received a report from
Children’s Services on whether you would be a suitable special guardian.
Therefore, you cannot make an application for a SGO unless you have given notice to Children’s Services of your intention to apply for a SGO at least three months before you make your application""
As the final hearing is in only just over a month would it not be too late for us to apply for a SGO.
I am concerned about time now.. I did briefly contact my daughter's solicitor before she rushed off to a court appearance and she did say it would be worth us making an application for a RO. She said though it was likely to be trumped by the father's application for custody, which is supported by children's services. I think they are wrong and believe it may be worth while and benefit the children if we do try for a RO or some other care order. I will try and contact daughter's solicitor tomorrow.
Despite being foster carers we do not have a good relationship with the local children's services as we had allegations made against us as being unfit carers in a dispute with them ( to do with my grandchildren and their mother). We were cleared of the charge and continued fostering after a 3 month suspension so though I try to be polite it feels we are being sidelined and the atmosphere is chilly. There is also being investigated a complaint we made against them which is not due to be concluded until the end of august Our complaint was made before the allegations were made against us so should not be viewed as tit for tat. It was basically about not providing a safe house or refuge for my daughter, not having a family conference and taking the children into care when most other professionals believed the children were safe with their mother.
Now even contact with our grandchildren is difficult. So I think the children services will oppose our application.
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